The Abortion Issue

[cat-i]

I... Doctors who have performed abortions can testify as to how horrible it is, especially if the fetus is already more developed...

 

Are you a doctor, or do you know doctors who have performed abortions who told you this? What exactly did they say?

[Robbie Stewart]

https://abort73.com/abortion/medical_testimony/   It is false to claim that no one knows when life begins and dishonest to argue that abortion does not kill a human being.

Every new life begins at conception. This is an irrefutable fact of biology. It is true for animals and true for humans. When considered alongside the law of biogenesis—that every species reproduces after its own kind—we can draw only one conclusion in regard to abortion. No matter what the circumstances of conception, no matter how far along in the pregnancy, abortion always ends the life of an individual human being. Every honest abortion advocate concedes this simple fact.

Faye Wattleton, the longest reigning president of the largest abortion business in the United States—Planned Parenthood—argued as far back as 1997 that everyone already knows that abortion kills. She proclaims the following in an interview with Ms. Magazine:

I think we have deluded ourselves into believing that people don't know that abortion is killing. So any pretense that abortion is not killing is a signal of our ambivalence, a signal that we cannot say yes, it kills a fetus.

1

On the other side of the pond, Ann Furedi, the chief executive of the largest independent abortion business in the UK, said this in a 2008 debate: 

We can accept that the embryo is a living thing in the fact that it has a beating heart, that it has its own genetic system within it. It’s clearly human in the sense that it’s not a gerbil, and we can recognize that it is human life.

2

Naomi Wolf, a prominent feminist author and abortion supporter, makes a similar concession when she writes:

Clinging to a rhetoric about abortion in which there is no life and no death, we entangle our beliefs in a series of self-delusions, fibs and evasions. And we risk becoming precisely what our critics charge us with being: callous, selfish and casually destructive men and women who share a cheapened view of human life... we need to contextualize the fight to defend abortion rights within a moral framework that admits that the death of a fetus is a real death.

3

David Boonin, in his book, A Defense of Abortion, makes this startling admission:

In the top drawer of my desk, I keep [a picture of my son]. This picture was taken on September 7, 1993, 24 weeks before he was born. The sonogram image is murky, but it reveals clear enough a small head tilted back slightly, and an arm raised up and bent, with the hand pointing back toward the face and the thumb extended out toward the mouth. There is no doubt in my mind that this picture, too, shows [my son] at a very early stage in his physical development. And there is no question that the position I defend in this book entails that it would have been morally permissible to end his life at this point.

4

Peter Singer, contemporary philosopher and public abortion advocate, joins the chorus in his book, Practical Ethics. He writes:

It is possible to give ‘human being’ a precise meaning. We can use it as equivalent to ‘member of the species Homo sapiens’. Whether a being is a member of a given species is something that can be determined scientifically, by an examination of the nature of the chromosomes in the cells of living organisms. In this sense there is no doubt that from the first moments of its existence an embryo conceived from human sperm and eggs is a human being.

5

Bernard Nathanson co-founded one of the most influential abortion advocacy groups in the world (NARAL) and once served as medical director for the largest abortion clinic in America. In 1974, he wrote an article for the New England Journal of Medicine in which he states, "There is no longer serious doubt in my mind that human life exists within the womb from the very onset of pregnancy..."⁶ Some years later, he would reiterate:

There is simply no doubt that even the early embryo is a human being. All its genetic coding and all its features are indisputably human. As to being, there is no doubt that it exists, is alive, is self-directed, and is not the the same being as the mother—and is therefore a unified whole.

7

Don't miss the significance of these acknowledgements. Prominent defenders of abortion rights publicly admit that abortion kills human beings. They are not saying that abortion is morally defensible because it doesn't kill a distinct human entity. They are admitting that abortion does kill a distinct human entity, but argue it is morally defensible anyway. We'll get to their arguments later, but the point here is this: There is simply no debate among honest, informed people that abortion kills distinctly human beings. 

Margaret Sanger, the birth control pioneer who founded Planned Parenthood, publicly condemned abortion. She called it "dangerous and vicious."⁸ In attempting to distance contraception from abortion, she wrote in 1932 that "no new life begins unless there is conception."⁹ In other words, Sanger knew that a new life begins at conception—and she knew that abortion entails "the killing of babies."¹⁰

Despite overwhelming consensus with regard to life's beginning, Roe vs. Wade, the landmark 1973 verdict which legalized abortion in the U.S. is actually built on the claim that there's no way to say for certain whether or not abortion kills because no one can say for certain when life begins. Justice Harry Blackmun, who authored the majority opinion wrote:

The judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to... resolve the difficult question of when life begins... since those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus.

11

Justice Blackmun's assertion is a ridiculous one, at least as it applies to the field of medicine. Dr. Nathanson had this to say about the ruling: 

Of course, I was pleased with Justice Harry Blackmun's abortion decisions, which were an unbelievably sweeping triumph for our cause, far broader than our 1970 victory in New York or the advances since then. I was pleased with Blackmun's 

conclusions

, that is. I could not plumb the ethical or medical reasoning that had produced the conclusions. Our final victory had been propped up on a misreading of obstetrics, gynecology, and embryology, and that's a dangerous way to win.

12

Dr. Nathanson would eventually abandon his support for elective abortion and note that "the basics [of prenatal development] were well-known to human embryology at the time the U.S. Supreme Court issued its 1973 rulings, even though the rulings made no use of them."¹³ In biological terms, life's beginning is a settled fact. Individual human life begins at fertilization, and there are all sorts of authoritative, public resources to prove this

[MrJacques]

Are you a doctor, or do you know doctors who have performed abortions who told you this? What exactly did they say?

 

I saw it on a Youtube video. I don't have the link anymore, but the doctor described it and it's a living human being, being sucked out or torn apart inside the womb.

[Robbie Stewart]

Are you a doctor, or do you know doctors who have performed abortions who told you this? What exactly did they say?

 

I am not a doctor, but the guy in this clip is. And he did thousands of abortions. Hear his story, and judge for yourself.

 

[Thor Buttox]

In my opinion a fetus is a living human being as soon as the egg is fertilized and cells start to divide. Of course they can't speak for themselves yet, but if they could, surely they would not want to be killed? Doctors who have performed abortions can testify as to how horrible it is, especially if the fetus is already more developed.

 

According to that logic preemie babies should not be put on life support and left to die?

The fact that you think this statement is in any way logical, consistent or even coherent just highlights how little your 'opinion' should matter in the life of someone needing to make a decision that could alter their life.

 

And that even counts if the demon Maloch is somehow involved. Sorry, if that wasn't you, I apologise, but after a while all the self-indulgent proselytising starts to blur.

[Odinson]

I think we can all agree that performing an abortion is not pleasant, probably gruesome to some extent. 

 

However, 'ickiness' isn't an argument. 

[Odinson]

The fact that you think this statement is in any way logical, consistent or even coherent just highlights how little your 'opinion' should matter in the life of someone needing to make a decision that could alter their life.

 

And that even counts if the demon Maloch is somehow involved. Sorry, if that wasn't you, I apologise, but after a while all the self-indulgent proselytising starts to blur.

 

Actual picture from inside an abortion clinic: 

 

[Red Robin]

I saw it on a Youtube video. I don't have the link anymore, but the doctor described it and it's a living human being, being sucked out or torn apart inside the womb.

Perhaps it was The Silent Scream which was made by the anti abortion crew and was discredited by many medical practioners as factually incorrect.

[Robbie Stewart]

To me it doesn't. This discussion was started because Robbie said he couldn't support a political party that supports illegal abortion. Therefore the discussion is not around what.a human life is or even the ethics around abortion.. It is around if abortion should be legal or illegal. Orget about unwanted pregnancies etc..if there is just one case where a couple's life can be impacted by not having an abortion (not because they don't want a baby) but because there are other factors to take into consideration. If it was illegal and they were forced to sell alternatives... Then in my option there government has failed them and not provided them with the basic care they needed. Based upon that they can then make their own informed decision what to do. It's not about abortion.. It's about choice.

 

I don't support abortion.

 

Whether legal or not is not the issue for me.

 

Abortion is the issue.

 

Hence, I do not support a political party that supports abortion in any way, shape or form.

 

Just to be very clear about why I started the discussion.

[Robbie Stewart]

So a rape victim must carry the child of her rapist to full term? And then raise said child?

A mother must carry a child to full term that is likely to be still born?

A couple must bring a child into this world that is likely only going to know a life of suffering and pain and ultimately death?

A 13yr old girl who's folks where a bit late with the birds and the bees talk must drop out of school and raise a child with likely no partner and not too many positive future prospects?

 

[this line edit added] : Responses about rape related abortion:

I just wanted to say that I am so pleased to read your stance on abortion in the case of rape. My mother was a 14-year-old girl who was raped, and she tried to have an abortion. The only reason I am alive today is because the doctor miscalculated her due date and thought she was too far in the pregnancy to have the abortion, when in reality he was a month off (this actually happened twice). It pains me every time I hear even die hard pro-lifers say "except in the case of rape." I know it is traumatizing for a girl or woman that is raped to have to carry a child, but it is no more traumatizing than someone who gets shot during a violent attack and has to deal with those wounds. Counseling and therapy can help heal the trauma, but the trauma will be there whether she has the abortion or not, and the abortion could even make it worse. It has caused me so much anxiety over the years to think that many pro-lifers would have approved of my mother's abortion. By the way, she gave me up for adoption, and my adoptive parents were never able to have children. Thank you so much for this wonderful view against abortion even in the case of rape.

That's the perspective of someone conceived through rape, but what about a mother who was the victim of rape? Here is a portion of another email we received:

I am the single mother of a beautiful, fun-loving, bright young woman of 16 years of age. This Easter we celebrated the 17th anniversary of her conception. Raped by an acquaintance, my first consideration was abortion even though I had spoken out against it all my life... I considered abortion until I [determined it wasn't] the right thing. I perused adoption and chose parents to give my baby to. I changed my mind and chose motherhood. I have provided, educated, clothed, fed, nursed, counseled, encouraged, and loved with all my heart the daughter of a man who violated the last virtue I was cherishing, my virginity... When interviewed about my experience several years ago, I was asked what I would a tell a young woman contemplating an abortion. After some careful consideration and a determination never to water down the truth I replied, "It is the hardest thing in the world to choose what you know is right. Being a single parent is no more easy than living with the haunting memory of aborting your child. No matter how hard you wish, either way your life will never be the same. Both have their pains and their struggles, however, only one choice afforded me a profound peace... Never have we been in want.  Never have I regretted my choice.  The scars of my experience have been healed... we show no signs of lack nor neglect...

Winnie Sherwood and her son, Ezekiel.

She is not alone in her experience:

When I was raped back in spring of 2006, I was devastated. I didn't know where to turn so I hid the memory in the back of my mind, until I found out I was pregnant, then I couldn't hide it any more. When I went to some friends, some told me to have an abortion, seeing as how the child is from rape it would be better that way. But one true friend told me to check out 

Abort73

. I am so thankful that I did, because when my son Ezekiel was born

 (pictured at left)

, and I held him in my arms I couldn't imagine loving him more, even through the struggle, he brings me so much joy. I am overwhelmed knowing that he is alive today. Thanks."

 - Winnie Sherwood

Whenever abortion advocates bring up this question of rape, they do so disingenuously. The fact is, they think mothers should have the right to kill their unborn children no matter what the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy might be. They only ask about the "12 year-old girl forced to carry her father's baby" because they know they can't win the abortion debate on the merits. They appeal to the emotion of these extremely hard and rare cases because it helps mask their true agenda, which is abortion on demand. If it is not legitimate to kill a person conceived in rape after they're born, then it is no more legitimate to kill that same person before they're born. The question is humanity, not rape.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Snip

 

Yeah, and? Of course abortion kills a foetus. To claim otherwise would be idiotic. But. The life vs non life thing is how the argument has been framed, so by necessity we need to use those terms with the discussion, and argue the foetus vs child "distinction" when it comes to things like this.

 

Fact is that abortions do not decrease with making them illegal. They only get more dangerous.

[Skubarra]

 

Hence, I do not support a political party that supports abortion in any way, shape or form.

 

 

I am still curious which political parties in SA other than the ACDP do not support abortion? My other guess would be the Freedom Front?

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I don't support abortion.

 

Whether legal or not is not the issue for me.

 

Abortion is the issue.

 

Hence, I do not support a political party that supports abortion in any way, shape or form.

 

Just to be very clear about why I started the discussion.

you can be okay with giving women the choice without being okay with abortion itself.

[fabes]

I know of someone (who's story I've quoted in this thread) who had a first child and suffered a massive bleed during labour. She was informed by the doctor that she could not get pregnant again because it is likely that she would heamorage. They used contraception but not everything is fool proof... She fell pregnant again.. Unexpectedly. What exception do you apply to that?

May I ask if she aborted or had the baby?

[Robbie Stewart]

I am still curious which political parties in SA other than the ACDP do not support abortion? My other guess would be the Freedom Front?

 

You must go search, like I had to.

[Stretch]

May I ask if she aborted or had the baby?

She did... But because it was illegal she had to board a plane to another country.. Have the abortion... Get on a plane and return.. And then hope there were no complications because she may be treated criminally if she needed to go into hospital locally when she was back in the country