The Abortion Issue

[Robbie Stewart]

you can be okay with giving women the choice without being okay with abortion itself.

 

To me, choice is not really the issue at play.

 

For me personally, this is not a choice vs no-choice issue, because as has been mentioned, women will get abortions whether they may or not. The problem as I see it is the need to end an innocent life. It begins there.

 

It's not a choice issue, it's a humanity issue.

 

I concede the point that making abortion illegal won't fix things. To me it's a morally reprehensible act which I do not condone off either way, and hence, to fix abortion, we would need to fix humanity first. 

 

But seeing as we live in a world where you get stabbed for a cigarette, where school kids get murdered in class, where men kills their wives and set their bodies alight in the boot of their cars, why on earth would people start caring about an unborn baby which may add to their problems in life?

 

That is what I struggle with, Myles.

[Skubarra]

You must go search, like I had to.

 

I did, I couldn't find any - thats why I asked you. But if you want to keep it your little secret it's ok by me 

[IceCreamMan]

You know that's not what he's saying. You're sounding like Cathy Newman in that Jordan Peterson interview, and it looks as if you're being deliberately obtuse.

No, I just hate generalisations.

 

And I hate silly reasoning.

 

Fact is women have the exclusive right to make these decisions even if married. That is grossly unfair an genderist. So in essence, a man has no say but can be held responsible.

 

I can even take it further. Assume you have a daughter. In za said daughter can elect to have an abortion an you as a parent need not be told. However, you as a parent can be held accountable to raise the child an can incur obligations.

 

Hey, I am all for fairness but then it has to be fair. Right?

[fabes]

problem is, that's a fundamental part of all(?) religions. And the anti-abortion people are mostly of the religious variety.

Yup trust the non-believers to bring religion into the debate and force their non beliefs(belief system) onto others

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

No, I just hate generalisations.

 

And I hate silly reasoning.

 

Yeah, so do I. But that wasn't "silly reasoning"

 

Fact is women have the exclusive right to make these decisions even if married. That is grossly unfair an genderist. So in essence, a man has no say but can be held responsible.

 

Both parties should be responsible. BUT - the woman can't just gap it and move if they want to. It's getting more difficult for men to do that, and any dude who DOES do that is a bloody immoral scum of the earth bastard, but it's still a lot easier to just ignore the kid and person who you knocked up. They bear the brunt of the pregnancy, and there's no argument around that. They also have a far higher chance of having to live with the stigma and responsibility that an unwanted pregnancy brings. That's a fact. Yes, some men are lumped with dealing with an unwanted kid, but in that situation (where there's still a relationship) the woman is STILL the one most responsible during and after the pregnancy. Carrying the baby, looking after herself, breastfeeding, delivering the baby etc etc. There's simply no way around that. We help as much as we can, but it's still just women who get pregnant.

I can even take it further. Assume you have a daughter. In za said daughter can elect to have an abortion an you as a parent need not be told. However, you as a parent can be held accountable to raise the child an can incur obligations.

 

Yeah, and? I'd want to be told, but I'd understand why I may not be. I'd also want to help them through anything they go through. 

 

Hey, I am all for fairness but then it has to be fair. Right?

 

Yes. Women get pregnant. Men don't. Good men help the woman through it all, and take care of the child after birth, but their responsibility in the pregnancy and immediately afterwards isn't nearly as high as that of the woman. Maybe "burden" is a better word for this. Women are far more burdened than men by unwanted pregnancies. 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Yup trust the non-believers to bring religion into the debate and force their non beliefs(belief system) onto others

Robbie brought it in way before, Fabes. 

 

BTW - atheism isn't a religion. It's absence of religion. We can still believe in / stand for / immerse ourselves in other things, but "non believers" just don't believe in one more god than you. The rise of militant atheism (as it's called) is in direct response to the continual forcing of religion down everyone's throats. It's nothing more than a reply saying leave us the fk alone with your sky-daddy bullcrap, and stop making out as if everyone non-religious is somehow morally / ethically / socially stunted or corrupt. 

[Pieter1]

I am still curious which political parties in SA other than the ACDP do not support abortion? My other guess would be the Freedom Front?

#idontwanttogetinvolvedthiswasonawhatsappgroup

[Shebeen]

I know I quoted it earlier, but I really loved this post.

 

 

The first part before the 6 devils is a simple statement.

The bit after the 6 devils is telling the first part to hold its beer.

 

I would not allow abortion. No further discussion.

 

 

           

[begin massive long winded illogical discussion]

 

In the extreme outlying circumstance raised by Stretch about termination of an unborn child to save a mother's life, I will let the doctor decide what is medically required to save her life, and if it entails terminating a pregnancy, then so be it. If a mother is in terminal danger, and by not terminating she dies, then I agree (reluctantly) to terminate, since the child is bound to die regardless whether it is aborted or not if the mother dies.

In no other scenario do I condone abortion.

Now, I expect the army to start attacking me for this, but will none the less not shirk away. I am a Christian, and this is directly in opposition to my world view. I am pro life. In history, there was Baal sacrifice and later child sacrifice to a pagan god called Molech. Parents would offer their children (read babies) alive to an altar in the shape of this god, with outstretched arms engulfing the child into a burning fire. There would be musicians making such loud music to drown out the screams of the children. God judged these nations by destruction, and today, it continues in the form of abortion.

I am not going to support any person, institute or political party which supports abortion, no matter what method of justification they use. People get all twisted about animal rights, and the rights of minorities etc., but these same people will deny a child the right to life.

I do not, and never will, see eye to eye with such hatred and evil.

There is simply no possible reason anyone can argue past the point that they just killed a defenseless child. 

[Skubarra]

#idontwanttogetinvolvedthiswasonawhatsappgroup

3C20392E-7A50-43C0-823A-C64518F77C0D.jpeg

 

Thanks Pieter - ok - so it is basically just the ACDP and VF+ (of parties represented in parliament)

 

No coincidence I guess that it's the same parties that are pro-guns, pro-death penalty and anti-gays - no wonder Robbie shies away from the answer!

[Shebeen]

such a great topic!

 

take it away penguin man

 

[Stretch]

[this line edit added] : Responses about rape related abortion:

I just wanted to say that I am so pleased to read your stance on abortion in the case of rape. My mother was a 14-year-old girl who was raped, and she tried to have an abortion. The only reason I am alive today is because the doctor miscalculated her due date.......etc etc

 

I can cheery pick stories too. Just because you have pro life stories of "survivors" does not mean there are not stories on the other spectrum

 

"At maybe two months she tried to abort. She went to a family doctor. It wasn’t legal. It would only have been legal if she was in a serious physical situation, not mental. She became even more depressed after I was born. She became suicidal. She was like that for a long time.

I was never mad at her. When I was a teenager I couldn’t understand why she didn’t want me. But when you study the country, the situation . . . I give every right to my mum. If I were her, I probably would have aborted. It has nothing to do with her maternal instincts – she already had two kids. It’s just that it wasn’t the right time.

I turned out okay and I’m happy to have experienced life. But now that I have experienced it, I know how it is. When you’re not born, you have no idea. You don’t care, because you don’t know. Am I glad that she didn’t succeed? I don’t really care. I am glad I am alive, but not necessarily because I am glad my mother didn’t do it. I shouldn’t have a say in it. It’s her body. It’s her choice.

It would have been much better for my mum’s mental and physical health if she had had the abortion. It was never an idea for me that women shouldn’t be given the right to abort because their kids could grow up, get an education, get a good life, all that.

When it comes to anti-abortion laws, if it’s not religious or it’s not political, it’s always very sentimental: it makes your eyes teary, but it doesn’t solve many women’s problems.

Maybe because women are ashamed or they feel guilty, they don’t talk about how hard pregnancy is. I know it was hard for my mum. Depression, hormones, breastfeeding . . . everything.

Not being religious probably has a lot to do with how I feel about abortion. It helped me look at my mother from her personal perspective. I look at her as a human being, not as a woman that should be, must be, a mother.

I don’t consider myself an “abortion survivor”. That has a bad tone. If you want to articulate it that way – that my mum’s abortion didn’t work and that’s why I’m alive – yes. But I don’t label myself like that. I just got lucky.

If you want to end your pregnancy, you should be able to do it legally, without being judged, without feeling guilty, without jumping a lot of hurdles. I support a woman’s right to choose."

[IceCreamMan]

 

No, I just hate generalisations.

 

And I hate silly reasoning.

 

Yeah, so do I. But that wasn't "silly reasoning"

 

Fact is women have the exclusive right to make these decisions even if married. That is grossly unfair an genderist. So in essence, a man has no say but can be held responsible.

 

Both parties should be responsible. BUT - the woman can't just gap it and move if they want to. It's getting more difficult for men to do that, and any dude who DOES do that is a bloody immoral scum of the earth bastard, but it's still a lot easier to just ignore the kid and person who you knocked up. They bear the brunt of the pregnancy, and there's no argument around that. They also have a far higher chance of having to live with the stigma and responsibility that an unwanted pregnancy brings. That's a fact. Yes, some men are lumped with dealing with an unwanted kid, but in that situation (where there's still a relationship) the woman is STILL the one most responsible during and after the pregnancy. Carrying the baby, looking after herself, breastfeeding, delivering the baby etc etc. There's simply no way around that. We help as much as we can, but it's still just women who get pregnant.

I can even take it further. Assume you have a daughter. In za said daughter can elect to have an abortion an you as a parent need not be told. However, you as a parent can be held accountable to raise the child an can incur obligations.

 

Yeah, and? I'd want to be told, but I'd understand why I may not be. I'd also want to help them through anything they go through.

 

Hey, I am all for fairness but then it has to be fair. Right?

 

Yes. Women get pregnant. Men don't. Good men help the woman through it all, and take care of the child after birth, but their responsibility in the pregnancy and immediately afterwards isn't nearly as high as that of the woman. Maybe "burden" is a better word for this. Women are far more burdened than men by unwanted pregnancies.

Ok, so you claim it’s fair that women can do anything they like regarding a foetus even abort an I claim it is grossly unfair. An then justify it even though under the constitution discrimination on gender is not permissible.

 

We are allowed to disagree. I am of the opinion that men will at some point be granted equal rights regarding abortion as it should be.

[Stretch]

Actual picture from inside an abortion clinic:

 

I didn't want to muddy the waters... But on the Monday after the referendum here this beautiful bit of clipart came out

 

[Skubarra]

I can cheery pick stories too. Just because you have pro life stories of "survivors" does not mean there are not stories on the other spectrum

 

 

If you want a true story from the pro choice side of the spectrum - Justin Bieber's mom was encouraged to have an abortion when she fell pregnant as a teenager but she chose not to...

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Ok, so you claim it’s fair that women can do anything they like regarding a foetus even abort an I claim it is grossly unfair. An then justify it even though under the constitution discrimination on gender is not permissible.

 

We are allowed to disagree. I am of the opinion that men will at some point be granted equal rights regarding abortion as it should be.

Nope. No way in hell would I say it's above board for a dude to insist that the woman carry a child to term because "he has equal say". That's just not acceptable. 

 

For a couple, sure - have the conversation. Find out what the other half wants. But in no way shape or form should a guy think that he can force a woman to carry an unwanted child to term, just because he wants a kid. That's what you're asking for, with equal rights to the decision. The power of veto. In this situation the relationship is also doomed to failure. 

[SwissVan]

If you want a true story from the pro choice side of the spectrum - Justin Bieber's mom was encouraged to have an abortion when she fell pregnant as a teenager but she chose not to...

Justin bladdy Bieber

Now if there ever was a good reason.....