Loadshedding solutions

[Theunissa]

34 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

 

Uhmmm ... where is the requirement for a flame proof room for the batteries ?

 

 

YES as to all the other items. 👍

 

PS - the topic of batteries and fires have been a hot topic in fire engineering journals and conferences for the last few years.  We do recommend our clients future proof their installations with fire rated battery rooms, but not part of SANS10400 Part T as yet.  Not even in the new draft version.

I attached a part of sans 10142 which is what all electrical must comy to incl solar. There are new things coming cas I said. So not everything out there is set in Concrete except what is Witten currently. And the current sans needs to be adhered to. And sans say battieres are not safe(specifically lead acid and gel.) there was a family last year whose kids lungs burned Die to the setup being wrong and batteries releasing gas. And not sufficient ventilation. The person wat trialed licence taken and prison for 1 year I think. Also came out that its supposed to be in a flame retardant room. I'm asking the one I know about the draft part of the sans you mentioned 

 

 

[ChrisF]

1 hour ago, Theunissa said:

I attached a part of sans 10142 which is what all electrical must comy to incl solar. There are new things coming cas I said. So not everything out there is set in Concrete except what is Witten currently. And the current sans needs to be adhered to. And sans say battieres are not safe(specifically lead acid and gel.) there was a family last year whose kids lungs burned Die to the setup being wrong and batteries releasing gas. And not sufficient ventilation. The person wat trialed licence taken and prison for 1 year I think. Also came out that its supposed to be in a flame retardant room. I'm asking the one I know about the draft part of the sans you mentioned 

 

 

Thanks.

 

I actually use SANS 10089-2, petroleum, in some of my fuel storage designs.  VERY tricky, as the BS, EN, American and SA codes all use different references and different certifications.  More fun when we need to confirm imported items conform to the SANS requirements.

 

Will read up the other code and check on the concept of "explosive atmospheres", as it applies to battery rooms, or rooms containing batteries.  The general design principle being to match the ventilation rate to the release of gas.

 

Mostly this is not an issue ... but when people place batteries in closed rooms the gas could build up .... the situation gets significantly worse when batteries are placed in a cupboard !!

 

 

The topic being discussed in fire journals relate to lithium batteries.  When these swell, overheat and then start burning it is nasty fire !!!  Nothing extinguish those flames !!!  It continues to burn until the "fuel" in the battery is spent.  This has nothing to do with "explosive atmospheres", and is not yet regulated.

[TheoG]

14 hours ago, Theunissa said:

A word of caution to those DIYING  batteries and inverters etc. There are big things coming. You need to have a proper qualidfied electrician do it. Must have an IE license. If not and something goes wrong no insurance claim. And batteries must be in. A fire proof room like garage. Not house. Solar panels the roof needs to be strengthened ( approved by engineer) the house electrical must have a coc that is valid otherwise this needs to be brought up to date. It is the user or lessers responsibility to make sir etje installation is legal. So you as responsible as the installer. If someone dies and you did not make sure the installation is legal you can be held responsible. Such says the law. That is why you need a proper electrician to do it. Most solar installers are not legally installing solar. And unfortunately you as the owner is responsible. So please make sure you use proper installation companies that are approved by the department of labour. The will have. A licence card. Im part of a group that has inspectors on it including AIA. Be warned 

Attached is a doc from ECA

 

I would like to se how they going to "police" this though .... 🤷‍♂️

They don't even have the capability and resources to bring most/all serious crimes like murder & rape to book, how the hell will they manage this.

For now, my install was done by a professional and I have a COC, how/when/if the rest of these requirements will actually be implemented and properly regulated, we will have to wait and see.

In the current state our country is, I'm not holding my breath ... 😥

Edited January 6, 2023 by TheoG

[Theunissa]

24 minutes ago, TheoG said:

I would like to se how they going to "police" this though .... 🤷‍♂️

They don't even have the capability and resources to bring most/all serious crimes like murder & rape to book, how the hell will they manage this.

For now, my install was done by a professional and I have a COC, how/when/if the rest of these requirements will actually be implemented and properly regulated, we will have to wait and see.

In the current state our country is, I'm not holding my breath ... 😥

There has been a few cases already. It not policed by government but independent bodies. Who then hand it over to NPA. There has been 3 prosecutions as far as I remember 

[dave303e]

Honestly, in my personal experience. Electrical COC's are not worth the paper they are written on. (same for Gas). It is just a money making scheme with the façade of safety. 

We had our gas stove installed in JHB, it was a brand new installation that came with COC. Then 3 years later we we selling and needed a gas COC. The next installer came along and wanted to charge 5k to redo the install as it was 'not safe'. I managed to track down the original installer who then for free just sent a new COC via email without even coming to check.

Same house electrical COC was a joke as well. Obviously it had a COC when we bought. 3 years later it cost us nearly 24k to get the house to a point where it would pass. All my smart switch installations were fine, but everything that was wrong was stuff that was exactly the same from when we bought. Bathroom heater wiring, pool pump on a plug, pool pump DB, outdoor sockets, geyser wiring, the gate motor wiring. It was 3 guys on site for nearly 2 days to sort. The scary thing is that we had 3 electricians quote for it and they all had the same feedback.

Our new solar installation on the farm had a COC done and it passed(it is a very professional looking installation) but it is pointless because the farm wiring itself is a nightmare. 

It is also the weight behind it is in the wrong place. No COC means you can't transfer the house or get insurance. They are not actively enforcing COC's in order to keep you safe, they just giving insurance a way to make sure there is some quality in what they are insuring and a reason for them not to pay if you didn't do it. If COC's were worth anything then they would be going into townships forcing shacks to be compliant to stop the hundred of deaths caused by illegal connections

[TheoG]

9 minutes ago, Theunissa said:

There has been a few cases already. It not policed by government but independent bodies. Who then hand it over to NPA. There has been 3 prosecutions as far as I remember 

I would like to see the details on these cases, any idea where I can find more info on it?

[The Ouzo]

I wonder how this fire proof battery installation will affect trolley inverters ?

 

Weight on the roof is something most people dont think about. But how much does a panel weigh ? And if they are going that route they should also look at pool solar heating installations.

 

Re: the COC. When we bought our current place it obviously came with a COC. Yet when we moved in there was no power to the garage, some investigation revealed that all the neutral wires in the DB were not tightened into the circuit breakers, most of them were making enough contact to but the garage one was not. I should have called the sparky that issued the COC but it was just quicker and easier to simply tighten all the wires into their respective breakers.

[Theunissa]

1 minute ago, The Ouzo said:

I wonder how this fire proof battery installation will affect trolley inverters ?

 

Weight on the roof is something most people dont think about. But how much does a panel weigh ? And if they are going that route they should also look at pool solar heating installations.

 

Re: the COC. When we bought our current place it obviously came with a COC. Yet when we moved in there was no power to the garage, some investigation revealed that all the neutral wires in the DB were not tightened into the circuit breakers, most of them were making enough contact to but the garage one was not. I should have called the sparky that issued the COC but it was just quicker and easier to simply tighten all the wires into their respective breakers.

If you report said sparky. The have to fix for free.

[Theunissa]

5 minutes ago, TheoG said:

I would like to see the details on these cases, any idea where I can find more info on it?

I will get you a contact on it

[Theunissa]

4 minutes ago, The Ouzo said:

I wonder how this fire proof battery installation will affect trolley inverters ?

 

Weight on the roof is something most people dont think about. But how much does a panel weigh ? And if they are going that route they should also look at pool solar heating installations.

 

Re: the COC. When we bought our current place it obviously came with a COC. Yet when we moved in there was no power to the garage, some investigation revealed that all the neutral wires in the DB were not tightened into the circuit breakers, most of them were making enough contact to but the garage one was not. I should have called the sparky that issued the COC but it was just quicker and easier to simply tighten all the wires into their respective breakers.theat 

Battery regs have always been there. It has just been ignored. Trolley inverter not actually allowed in house or to run your main house from it same with generator installs. There is important stuff like earthing bonding etc. And oat installation it's not done. There are guys working very hard to get the whole industry fixed, specifically electrical. It will take time but there is already alot happening like insurance who doesn't pay it things go wrong. PS you as non electrician is not allowed to technically touch electricity. But ja baby steps. 

[Theunissa]

@TheoG. Its not made public BY NPA. yet that's part of the fight the guys are fighting to get done. Education is very important. I do know of 2 electricians who has to fix stuff for free after issuing a COC that non compliant 

[dave303e]

8 minutes ago, The Ouzo said:

I wonder how this fire proof battery installation will affect trolley inverters ?

 

Weight on the roof is something most people dont think about. But how much does a panel weigh ? And if they are going that route they should also look at pool solar heating installations.

 

Re: the COC. When we bought our current place it obviously came with a COC. Yet when we moved in there was no power to the garage, some investigation revealed that all the neutral wires in the DB were not tightened into the circuit breakers, most of them were making enough contact to but the garage one was not. I should have called the sparky that issued the COC but it was just quicker and easier to simply tighten all the wires into their respective breakers.

Trolley inverters will be an interesting one. 

Panels are not that heave and they spread the weight out over a larger area. A person walking on a roof has a lot more pressure on the roof than a panel does. I did a whole bunch of checks when I built our shed for the solar. It was very easy to over build it to handle extra weight.

[Frosty]

14 minutes ago, dave303e said:

We had our gas stove installed in JHB, it was a brand new installation that came with COC. Then 3 years later we we selling and needed a gas COC.

Same house electrical COC was a joke as well. Obviously it had a COC when we bought. 3 years later it cost us nearly 24k

The CoC is only valid for 2 years (electrical) but 5 years (gas). I’m not sure if selling renders any CoC invalid

[TheoG]

9 minutes ago, Theunissa said:

Battery regs have always been there. It has just been ignored. Trolley inverter not actually allowed in house or to run your main house from it same with generator installs. There is important stuff like earthing bonding etc. And oat installation it's not done. There are guys working very hard to get the whole industry fixed, specifically electrical. It will take time but there is already alot happening like insurance who doesn't pay it things go wrong. PS you as non electrician is not allowed to technically touch electricity. But ja baby steps. 

I hear you, BUT, there is a lot of things on my house electric system that was done so shoddy by the electrician that I had to correct it myself to proper std.

Edited January 6, 2023 by TheoG

[Theunissa]

7 minutes ago, dave303e said:

Trolley inverters will be an interesting one. 

Panels are not that heave and they spread the weight out over a larger area. A person walking on a roof has a lot more pressure on the roof than a panel does. I did a whole bunch of checks when I built our shed for the solar. It was very easy to over build it to handle extra weight.

Problem is 10 panels add 200-300kg. Your roof must be strenthened and determined by an engineer. Because it not just the weight but also fire risk. And also the wind load speed. I'm not saying you don't know hoe to make sure it's strong enough. It's about protecting yourself legally should something go wrong. 

[The Ouzo]

15 minutes ago, Theunissa said:

Battery regs have always been there. It has just been ignored. Trolley inverter not actually allowed in house or to run your main house from it same with generator installs. There is important stuff like earthing bonding etc. And oat installation it's not done. There are guys working very hard to get the whole industry fixed, specifically electrical. It will take time but there is already alot happening like insurance who doesn't pay it things go wrong. PS you as non electrician is not allowed to technically touch electricity. But ja baby steps. 

yes technically you should not even be changing a plug as a non sparky.