Tour de France 2024

[splat]

5 hours ago, Mountain Bru said:

https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/uci-jury-waarschuwt-mark-cavendish-en-jasper-philipsen/

I wonder what the conversations were in the connoisseurs' office after the sprint. Would have taken massive cohones to DQ Cav.

Philipsen was relegated today after that warning.

He closed the door on Wout, but it seemed pretty mild (in my opinion)

[OVERDRIVE]

Right am up to date Wout van Whine didn't win, which is a good. 

Poggz leads. 

Girmay still green, also good. 

Evanopoel still white, 

Good day today. 

[JayLow]

8 hours ago, OVERDRIVE said:

Right am up to date Wout van Whine didn't win, which is a good. 

Poggz leads. 

Girmay still green, also good. 

Evanopoel still white, 

Good day today. 

Why don't we like Wout? He comes through pretty positively in the Netflix show, so would be interesting to learn what actually went down in the past.

(in case you can't tell, I'm new to following Le Tour)

[Mook]

18 hours ago, Irvin85 said:

What was the Top speed of Cavendish in the sprint yesterday? 

I guess he was going faster than the rest 🤷‍♂️

[splat]

9 hours ago, OVERDRIVE said:

Right am up to date Wout van Whine didn't win, which is a good. 

Poggz leads. 

Girmay still green, also good. 

Evanopoel still white, 

Good day today. 

Is this considered whining ?

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/a-bad-habit-wout-van-aert-reacts-angrily-to-jasper-philipsens-tour-de-france-sprint-deviation/

[NickGM]

2 hours ago, JayLow said:

Why don't we like Wout? He comes through pretty positively in the Netflix show, so would be interesting to learn what actually went down in the past.

(in case you can't tell, I'm new to following Le Tour)

We mostly do. And I'm team MvDP. I really don't know any people who dislike Wout. He's a vintage belgian hardman (a flahute) and complains far too little when you consider how often he's scarified his insane talent for his team's ambitions. I'm sure there is adequate fiscal compensation, but money is temporary and glory is forever. One only needs to consider the 2021 TDF where he was let off the leash because the team's GC ambitions had gone down the toilet. He went on to win a mountain stage, a time trial and sprint. OK those come with a few caveats, but that puts him in some pretty elite company.

Just my opinion.

[Mountain Bru]

I actually feel for Wout and anyone else hindered in a sprint by someone breaking the rules. The nature of cycling makes it so hard to regulate, and the punishments feel completely trivial and unjust. 

In rugby or soccer or most sports, if a team contravenes the rules, the other team is given a penalty which gives them a real advantage to balance things out, and the game goes on. In cycling, if someone breaks a rule in a sprint and is punished, the punishment generally doesn't advantage the person they wronged in any way, and usually the wronged person's chance of sprinting and winning is completely nulified. It's the equivalent of a rugby match where a team breaks the rules, and then the opposition is removed from the field and the game ends, and the only punishment is the rule breaker is fined R50 and told not to do it again. The teams don't care at all about the fine, and unless there's green jersey points in question, most guys don't care if they come 4th or 107th. 

I hope the yellow card system they're trialing from August helps to fix this, but I personally think that the UCI first needs to clarify the rules, and thereafter the punishments need to be way harsher, and team-wide, if they want them to have effect. For example - I think the whole team should be relegated if 1 rider is penalised, because relegating a lead out man has zero effect. 

Edited July 5 by Mountain Bru

[Mountain Bru]

12 hours ago, splat said:

Philipsen was relegated today after that warning.

He closed the door on Wout, but it seemed pretty mild (in my opinion)

I think if Wout didn't brake, and carried on sprinting in his lane like he's entitled to, it wouldn't have been mild and there would have been a massive crash when Philipsen chopped his front wheel or bumped him into the barrier. 

[lechatnoir]

33 minutes ago, Mountain Bru said:

I actually feel for Wout and anyone else hindered in a sprint by someone breaking the rules. The nature of cycling makes it so hard to regulate, and the punishments feel completely trivial and unjust. 

In rugby or soccer or most sports, if a team contravenes the rules, the other team is given a penalty which gives them a real advantage to balance things out, and the game goes on. In cycling, if someone breaks a rule in a sprint and is punished, the punishment generally doesn't advantage the person they wronged in any way, and usually the wronged person's chance of sprinting and winning is completely nulified. It's the equivalent of a rugby match where a team breaks the rules, and then the opposition is removed from the field and the game ends, and the only punishment is the rule breaker is fined R50 and told not to do it again. The teams don't care at all about the fine, and unless there's green jersey points in question, most guys don't care if they come 4th or 107th. 

I hope the yellow card system they're trialing from August helps to fix this, but I personally think that the UCI first needs to clarify the rules, and thereafter the punishments need to be way harsher, and team-wide, if they want them to have effect. For example - I think the whole team should be relegated if 1 rider is penalised, because relegating a lead out man has zero effect. 

I think your team-wide relegation would only be effective if the sprinter doing naughty things was in a team where there were GC aspirations. The point being, if the whole team's relegated, then would they really care? They're there for stage wins, and nothing to do with time or anything else.Look at Alpecin... would they care? Would Intermache care? Maincheese is in GC, so if Bini pulled a 'dirty', perhaps they'd be impacted?

You are onto something though... currently the penalties are far too lenient and they need to hit the team where it will effect a change in behaviour. What about if they can't get help from their team car the next stage and have to rely on neutral service?

 

[Mountain Bru]

2 minutes ago, lechatnoir said:

I think your team-wide relegation would only be effective if the sprinter doing naughty things was in a team where there were GC aspirations. The point being, if the whole team's relegated, then would they really care? They're there for stage wins, and nothing to do with time or anything else.Look at Alpecin... would they care? Would Intermache care? Maincheese is in GC, so if Bini pulled a 'dirty', perhaps they'd be impacted?

You are onto something though... currently the penalties are far too lenient and they need to hit the team where it will effect a change in behaviour. What about if they can't get help from their team car the next stage and have to rely on neutral service?

 

I was more thinking that the team-wide relegation would clean up the lead up to a sprint, and cause lead out men to actually care about being relegated.

In the Netflix doco, you see how broken the relegation system is in the stage when MVDP is relegated for bumping Bini, but that made the space that allowed Jasper to win. I think the team DS literally says they don't care about the fines, as long as they're winning. But if MVDP's relegation affected Jasper, maybe he'd take fewer chances.

['Dale]

GC snakes and ladders today with the race of truth - who will climb up and who will slide down? So hard to predict.

The Olympic champion versus the rainbow jersey versus the yellow jersey vs the defending Dane. 
 

 

[lechatnoir]

24 minutes ago, Mountain Bru said:

I was more thinking that the team-wide relegation would clean up the lead up to a sprint, and cause lead out men to actually care about being relegated.

In the Netflix doco, you see how broken the relegation system is in the stage when MVDP is relegated for bumping Bini, but that made the space that allowed Jasper to win. I think the team DS literally says they don't care about the fines, as long as they're winning. But if MVDP's relegation affected Jasper, maybe he'd take fewer chances.

so, sort of like NFL? then relegate the whole lot? That'd be effective, but only when a team mate was placing well. Without there being a proper punishment that is felt properly, things won't change.

make them all sleep in a tent in a field! ride the next three transfers or make their feed zone a roadside cafe. Jokes aside, there must be a proper solution.

[OVERDRIVE]

2 hours ago, splat said:

Is this considered whining ?

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/a-bad-habit-wout-van-aert-reacts-angrily-to-jasper-philipsens-tour-de-france-sprint-deviation/

Can’t see 🙃

[OVERDRIVE]

4 hours ago, JayLow said:

Why don't we like Wout? He comes through pretty positively in the Netflix show, so would be interesting to learn what actually went down in the past.

(in case you can't tell, I'm new to following Le Tour)

…and none of us will give you any negative opinions, so you can form your own and enjoy. 
 

Man that response makes me feel so responsible and good 😂

[Kenosi]

1 hour ago, splat said:

Is this considered whining ?

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/a-bad-habit-wout-van-aert-reacts-angrily-to-jasper-philipsens-tour-de-france-sprint-deviation/

QTNA but what WvA was alluding to was the frequency of these "bad habits"

• Stage 1 - 2022 UAE Tour (cue to 3m45) https://youtu.be/pcK933d-ICs
• Stage 3 - 2023 TDF https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NJYVtC9YiAA?feature=share
• Stage 7 - 2023 TDF https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SdStdgBB77A?feature=share
• Stage 11 - 2023 TDF (less of an issue here) https://www.youtube.com/shorts/G0tinAGYtqE
• Stage 18 - 2023 TDF (cue to 10-25th sec)  https://youtu.be/J5GtRhKg0u0

 

 

[OVERDRIVE]

Actually looking forward to today😎