Time Trial Stats

[Turk182]

Craig' date=' what we used to do for power besides the gym was standing starts as mentioned.

 

3 sets 8 by 100 meters

1 set  3 by 250 meters

 

But the one that gave us the best results was 3 hours twice a week in 53x11. Dont have to do it hard at all, just never come out of that gear. Even on the hills stay seated and just stay in that gear. You will be amazed at how much strength yopu get from 5 weeks of that.

[/quote']

Chunky / Craig

Do not forget that track and road are very different. As I have said before - strength is NEVER a performance limiter in endurance cycling - it is all about cardio vascular function (Track is another matter)

If you want to get a faster finish then it is about training the anaerobic work capacity via 30-60 sec efforts, and then having a high enough FTP to ensure you have enough left to actually sprint. Boonen does not have a huge finish - around 1800w - but by the time he has ridden you into the ground over 250km as a result of his huge overall fitness, then he doesn't need any more than that to win... (Might ring some bells 101%..)

I'm not sure i agree with the cardio vascular statement, surely you need strength in an endurance sport like cycling? Need that leg strength to get up the hills? If i sat on my trainer all day doing 39x23 spins at 120rpm my cardio would get quite good but my leg strength would be poor and i would fall back on the hills, comments please.....

[Turk182]

I agree with you BikeMax about your statments about Boonen.

 

I'll always try get rid of a good sprinter before we get to the line .

If in a break ' date=' one can start picking up about 20km's to go who in the break is starting to suffer. If a fast sprinter starts taking strain then you try lift the tempo to a uncomfortable pace for him, hopefully he gets droped.

Or if all else fails jump him as much as possible , if  like me one cant sprint then I would rather loose the race trying to get rid of a good sprinter than let him beat me on the line without trying to do anything about it!

 

 

[/quote'] Yeah Boonen needs a lead out otherwise he faids, Robbie on the other hand beats him when there is no lead out due to the fact that he has a better kick, more power i would say....

[BikeMax]

 

I agree with you BikeMax about your statments about Boonen.

 

I'll always try get rid of a good sprinter before we get to the line .

If in a break ' date=' one can start picking up about 20km's to go who in the break is starting to suffer. If a fast sprinter starts taking strain then you try lift the tempo to a uncomfortable pace for him, hopefully he gets droped.

Or if all else fails jump him as much as possible , if  like me one cant sprint then I would rather loose the race trying to get rid of a good sprinter than let him beat me on the line without trying to do anything about it!

 

 

[/quote'] Yeah Boonen needs a lead out otherwise he faids, Robbie on the other hand beats him when there is no lead out due to the fact that he has a better kick, more power i would say....

 

No - less power, but faster acceleration (lower weight, better fast twitch recruitment) but in anything but a pancake flat race (like a tour sprinters stage) Boonen will be there at the end but Robbie won't even be in sight.

 

Look at the spring classics like Flanders - you have to be able to climb and sprint to win those (Boonen can, Robbie can't)

 

[BikeMax]

 

Craig' date=' what we used to do for power besides the gym was standing starts as mentioned.

 

3 sets 8 by 100 meters

1 set  3 by 250 meters

 

But the one that gave us the best results was 3 hours twice a week in 53x11. Dont have to do it hard at all, just never come out of that gear. Even on the hills stay seated and just stay in that gear. You will be amazed at how much strength yopu get from 5 weeks of that.

[/quote']

 

Chunky / Craig

 

Do not forget that track and road are very different. As I have said before - strength is NEVER a performance limiter in endurance cycling - it is all about cardio vascular function (Track is another matter)

 

If you want to get a faster finish then it is about training the anaerobic work capacity via 30-60 sec efforts, and then having a high enough FTP to ensure you have enough left to actually sprint. Boonen does not have a huge finish - around 1800w - but by the time he has ridden you into the ground over 250km as a result of his huge overall fitness, then he doesn't need any more than that to win... (Might ring some bells 101%..)

 

 

I'm not sure i agree with the cardio vascular statement, surely you need strength in an endurance sport like cycling? Need that leg strength to get up the hills? If i sat on my trainer all day doing 39x23 spins at 120rpm my cardio would get quite good but my leg strength would be poor and i would fall back on the hills, comments please.....

 

Go and search the forum - just before Christmas there was a fairly in depth thread on this where I posted some of the evidence supporting my claim.

 

It has been proven that the average non cyclist has sufficient strength to compete in endurance cycling - and that increasing leg strength does not improve performance - the ability of the CV system to supply 02 to the working muscles (aerobic capacity) is what it is all about.

 

So - if you sat on your trainer in 39x23 - at the correct intensity, you would climb to the best of your ability.

 

[Turk182]

I agree with you BikeMax about your statments about Boonen.

 

I'll always try get rid of a good sprinter before we get to the line .

If in a break ' date=' one can start picking up about 20km's to go who in the break is starting to suffer. If a fast sprinter starts taking strain then you try lift the tempo to a uncomfortable pace for him, hopefully he gets droped.

Or if all else fails jump him as much as possible , if  like me one cant sprint then I would rather loose the race trying to get rid of a good sprinter than let him beat me on the line without trying to do anything about it!

 

 

[/quote'] Yeah Boonen needs a lead out otherwise he faids, Robbie on the other hand beats him when there is no lead out due to the fact that he has a better kick, more power i would say....

No - less power, but faster acceleration (lower weight, better fast twitch recruitment) but in anything but a pancake flat race (like a tour sprinters stage) Boonen will be there at the end but Robbie won't even be in sight.

Look at the spring classics like Flanders - you have to be able to climb and sprint to win those (Boonen can, Robbie can't)

But if has a lower weight and faster twitch muscles surely his power to weight is better and he should climb better?, then what makes a good climber?

[Turk182]

Craig' date=' what we used to do for power besides the gym was standing starts as mentioned.

 

3 sets 8 by 100 meters

1 set  3 by 250 meters

 

But the one that gave us the best results was 3 hours twice a week in 53x11. Dont have to do it hard at all, just never come out of that gear. Even on the hills stay seated and just stay in that gear. You will be amazed at how much strength yopu get from 5 weeks of that.

[/quote']

Chunky / Craig

Do not forget that track and road are very different. As I have said before - strength is NEVER a performance limiter in endurance cycling - it is all about cardio vascular function (Track is another matter)

If you want to get a faster finish then it is about training the anaerobic work capacity via 30-60 sec efforts, and then having a high enough FTP to ensure you have enough left to actually sprint. Boonen does not have a huge finish - around 1800w - but by the time he has ridden you into the ground over 250km as a result of his huge overall fitness, then he doesn't need any more than that to win... (Might ring some bells 101%..)

I'm not sure i agree with the cardio vascular statement, surely you need strength in an endurance sport like cycling? Need that leg strength to get up the hills? If i sat on my trainer all day doing 39x23 spins at 120rpm my cardio would get quite good but my leg strength would be poor and i would fall back on the hills, comments please.....

Go and search the forum - just before Christmas there was a fairly in depth thread on this where I posted some of the evidence supporting my claim.

It has been proven that the average non cyclist has sufficient strength to compete in endurance cycling - and that increasing leg strength does not improve performance - the ability of the CV system to supply 02 to the working muscles (aerobic capacity) is what it is all about.

So - if you sat on your trainer in 39x23 - at the correct intensity, you would climb to the best of your ability.

So then it really comes down to, you either have it or you don't senario?

[Gumpole]

He has a poorer P/W ratio than Boonen so he is weaker on the hills,

but more fast twitch (good for sprinting) muscle %.. am I right.?

 

He is also quite a lot smaller so the aero drag on him at 60+ km/h would be a factor on why he is such a good sprinter.

[Turk182]

He has a poorer P/W ratio than Boonen so he is weaker on the hills' date='

but more fast twitch (good for sprinting) muscle %.. am I right.?

 

He is also quite a lot smaller so the aero drag on him at 60+ km/h would be a factor on why he is such a good sprinter.

[/quote'] Does not make sense to me, if you have a poor power to weight ration you won't be able to accelerate quickly, take a car for instance, a gOLF gTI 147KW and a Bmw 130i 195kw, the golf gets dumped, or is my logic wrong?

[Gumpole]

The difference is that because of McEwens Fast twitch fibers he can put out a lot of power for a very short period of time. (maybe 5 seconds)

Boonen can sustain the power output for a longer time. (5 minutes)

 

That is why Robbie is always completely hidden in a sprint until the very last minute when he bursts out to win.

 

Another example: If the two were runners Robbie would probably out sprint Boonen over 60m, It would be close over 100m, Boonen would win 200 or 400m.

 

 

[Gumpole]

bikemax?

[Turk182]

The difference is that because of McEwens Fast twitch fibers he can put out a lot of power for a very short period of time. (maybe 5 seconds)

Boonen can sustain the power output for a longer time. (5 minutes)

 

That is why Robbie is always completely hidden in a sprint until the very last minute when he bursts out to win.

 

Another example: If the two were runners Robbie would probably out sprint Boonen over 60m' date=' It would be close over 100m, Boonen would win 200 or 400m.

 

 

[/quote'] Ok, that makes sense, so boonen would then be able to out climb a pure climber on shorter hills but dumped on longer ones, so could boonen develop into a better climber or does his genetic makeup limit him? Lance isn't the smallest guy 178cm at 71kg and he climbs like the hills are flats....maybe we should just leave it at "you either have it or you don't"

[Dr. Seuss]

 

 

As I have said before - strength is NEVER a performance limiter in endurance cycling - it is all about cardio vascular function (Track is another matter)

 

 

this is good news

 

- i tried the "chunky-big-blade-11" trick this morning & lasted all of 5 minutes until the first little bump in the road appeared. 

 

needless to say me legs was stuffed for the rest of the ride!

 

 

 

 

 

[Gumpole]

The difference is that because of McEwens Fast twitch fibers he can put out a lot of power for a very short period of time. (maybe 5 seconds)

Boonen can sustain the power output for a longer time. (5 minutes)

 

That is why Robbie is always completely hidden in a sprint until the very last minute when he bursts out to win.

 

Another example: If the two were runners Robbie would probably out sprint Boonen over 60m' date=' It would be close over 100m, Boonen would win 200 or 400m.

 

 

[/quote'] Ok, that makes sense, so boonen would then be able to out climb a pure climber on shorter hills but dumped on longer ones, so could boonen develop into a better climber or does his genetic makeup limit him? Lance isn't the smallest guy 178cm at 71kg and he climbs like the hills are flats....maybe we should just leave it at "you either have it or you don't"

 

I think on a long climb (not a tiny bump that anybody can sprint over with a huge effort) then P/W ratio is almost everything.

LA was a very powerful rider - hence good P/W - so good on climbs

and also good absolute power so good in TTing.

But I would imagine a low % of fast twitch muscle so not a great sprinter (although he wasn't bad)

 

Thats the amazing thing about cycling its not just a contest between who is the most 'powerful' . It is who has the most power, and power to weight ratio, and power for short bursts, and lowest wind resistance... which all has to be factored into different types of races + their is the whole angle of the team!

 

[Turk182]

 

As I have said before - strength is NEVER a performance limiter in endurance cycling - it is all about cardio vascular function (Track is another matter)

 

 

this is good news

 

- i tried the "chunky-big-blade-11" trick this morning & lasted all of 5 minutes until the first little bump in the road appeared. 

 

needless to say me legs was stuffed for the rest of the ride!

 

 

 

 

i guess if you keep doing it you'll eventually get over the bump and start to ride a lot quicker....

[pererace70]

Chunky, or anyone else for that matter...

 

How many days p/month or p/week would you dedicate to big-blade-11 riding...?

[bruce]

Another thing that you have to remember, is that the body has different energy systems, which are utilised differently depending on the power being produced.

 

As a result, I could have the same power at functional threshold but better power at VO2Max i.e. my power profile would be different to another rider's.  These energy systems need to be specifically targeted in order to get the required training adaption and improvements.

 

Then there are the longer running processes.  The neural adaptions, increased capillirisation etc.  All of which improve the efficiency of the muscles and/or the capacity of the muscles.  So the muscles are either able to use less energy to produce the same power (hence allowing gluycogen stores to last longer) or they are capable of storing more glycogen, or they are better at utilising fat as an energy source.

 

All of these training adaptions etc mean that each athlete is somewhat unique and has different strengths and weaknesses.  Training with a power meter enables you to identify those weaknesses and hence change your training program to address them better.

 

Bikemax will tell you, he has two athletes (myself and someone else) who have very similar power to weight at ftp - yet I have been able to make the breaks and the other hasn't - looking at the power data it is possible to identify the shortcomings and target those areas that need more work.