LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[Topwine]

Hi Everybody

 

I have recently started with a ketogenic diet and have done alot of reading up on the subject.

I just want to point out that gluconeogenesis also includes the process where your body breaks down fat to produce free fatty acids and a glycerol. Glycerol either gets stored as glycogen by the liver or gets broken down into glucose and release into the bloodstream (to be taken up by muscles or to help power your brain).

So your body will be running on ketones and glucose in a state of ketosis, even if you have no carb intake. There is an adaption period for your body to get used to the metabolic state of ketosis, I like to think of this like the period where your fat enjin starts to get fit. It has been proven that you get a performance dip in the first few weeks, probably because of low glucose levels in your muscles (because your brain is still using all the glucose produced via lipolysis) and not adeqaute fat breakdown by your body (yet) to produce all the fuel you need during the adaption phase.

 

And here is an interesting study on the impact on the aerobic threshold and v02 max ketogenic adapted.

 

http://eatingacademy...tic-performance

 

Cheerz

 

I suggest you read some more. Nutritional ketosis is a stressed state and not for everybody or healthy people, imho. There is many possible long term health consequences for healthy people, especially young growing people. Your body have to permanently rely on stress hormones like adrenaline and cortisol to break down tissues to provide the glucose it needs. Contrary to what you state, the body, in ketosis, not only run on ketones and glucose, but also fatty acids and amino acids.

 

The "study" you mention, is not a true study, but a n=1 experiment of an individual that is carbohydrate intolerant, so it is not a true reflexion of what is possible by a healthy carbohydrate/glucose tolerant individual. Just keep that in mind. But even that experiment proves the loss of top end power in ketosis.

[Topwine]

TW makes an interesting point - that energy production at maximal intensity is limited by max O2 intake - the arguments being that as energy production from fat is less efficient than from glucose, then the limitation is actually a persons ability to absorb oxygen.

 

It is interesting in that it may explain why folk riding at intensity battle to do so on fat.

 

However, intuitively I find it difficult to believe that O2 intake is a limiting factor - I've never really panted so hard that I couldn't pant harder.

 

The make or break for this theory will be a study on whether is is possible to max out your O2 absorption rate.

 

(VO2max is a different thing - VO2max is not just how much 02 you can absorb, but also how much 02 you can use).

 

But it is an interesting thought.

 

I think you misunderstand oxygen intake/absorbtion vs use . It's essentially the same. You cannot take in more than you use. If your cells use more, they demand more and therfore the blood have to supply more, if possible. IF your cardio system can't supply more oxygen to the tissues/cells you will be limited ito the rate of work you can do, or cells will die. As your exercise intensity goes up, so does oxygen demand. Oxidative fat metabolism requires more oxygen per unit of ATP, the energy needed for muscle cells and ALL cells living.

 

There are many things that determine the max amount of oxygen that your blood can carry, but hemoglubin the most important. Also at the tissue/cell level things like pH, Temp and CO2 pressure among them determine how much O2 can be delivered to the cells. Glucose metabolism produces more CO2 than fat burning, which allow it to exchange more oxygen to the tissues.

 

More "panting"/harder breathing will not cause you to "take in" more oxygen in your blood. What it will do, is let you lose more CO2 from your blood which reduces the capability of your blood to supply oxygen to the cells/tissues /

 

Here is good explanation: http://www.austincc.edu/emeyerth/hemoglob.htm

and here, http://www.austincc.edu/emeyerth/bohr.htm

and here, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22596/figure/A1359/?report=objectonly

For the more adventurous and scientifically minded, http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/protective-co2-aging.shtml

[davetapson]

Comment from Attia for jcza...

 

Are carbohydrates necessary to produce 225 watts or more for hours on end? Yes.

 

http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nutrition/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist

[davetapson]

HT - I know you have posted about this before, but this is now a long thread...

 

I'm going to get some bloods done, out of interest.

 

What do you recommend?

[spy]

Hi All,

 

Below is a bit of my background and the Reason i was forced to go LCHF (Sometimes VLCHF).

 

I was diagnosed with Ankylosis spondylitis (AS) about 5 years ago. My rheumatologist put me on methotrexate.

 

I responded very well to the drug and never actually used any NSAID to treat pain or mobility problems.

 

My life was normal, meaning I did anything I wanted and my diet was the typical low fat diet that the western society makes us believe are healthy.

 

Towards the end of 2011 I injured my back while MTB, through this experience my AS flared, causing me great pain and my mobility decreased significantly. (From 10 to about 2-3, I could hardly get out of bed in the morning and I would lie 30 minutes in a hot tub to gain enough mobility to dress and go to work).

 

After this experience, I did quite a bit of research to educate myself about AS and natural remedies in regards to this chronic disease.

Through all the research that I did, I established that diet was the only solution that I could try. I found other people who’s AS is in remission due to a very low carbohydrate diet.

The diet required to remove all Starches from their diet so effectively they are eating a diet high in fat, moderate protein and very low (<50 g) in carbohydrates.

 

So on the 1 January 2012, I stop taking my methotrexate and changed my diet to a high in FAT. Well, the 1st few months were very difficult to say the least, my body was so used to burning sugar (Carbs) for energy that I was chronically tired and my cycling performance decreased significantly.

 

Now that I am 23 months into the diet my pain levels are down to about 2 out of 10 and my mobility is improving daily, some days I struggle a bit with the AS but overall I am much healthier than before.

 

Towards the end of May (2012) I completed SANI2C RACE successfully finishing in the top 15% of the field, since eating a high fat diet(<50g Carbs) I have noticed that I can compete at almost the same level as before as long as I supplement with Carbs during the race in form of Superstarch / 32GI (PLAIN) . Lately I must admit that I will finish perhaps around position 100 in the MTN national races (Marathon) where I previously finished any ware between positions 50-70. But if I consider how healthy and better I feel the lost in performance is not that bad although I am very competitive in nature.

 

I have noticed that some times my performance dips quite a bit not sure why that is but if I eat sufficient calories I am ok . I also experience the same thing that all the others report that when you race you need carbs.

 

During Barberton / Sabie this year it was so evident, as you all know those races demand so much from you in terms of the hilly nature of the route that you quickly dip into glycogen reserves especially if you at threshold for the whole race.

 

 

Lastly I would also like to add that Peter attia has posted that glycogen can be restored in a keto adapted person to about 70% full , through Gluconeogenesis that is a biggie for me because if I increase my carbs to much I aggregate my AS and then the inflammation just kills me and robs me of performance. Adding perhaps 100g of carbs a day before a race is enough to full your levels if you are consuming enough other calories. (FATs = MCT’s )

Before I started this regime my CRP levels was running between 35 -50 . I can testify that inflammation has a massive impact in our bodies, when mime was sky high it made me anemic and my hematocrit was hovering around 38 . Now days it is back to 44.5 and can tell the diff , as you all know cyclist don’t need muscles but oxygen .

 

My conclusion and the way forward is that I will continue what I am have been doing for the last 23 months because I don’t have much of an option . Sometimes I long for that extra bit of power or perhaps new ways to see where the rabbit will lead me to get more bang for my bug in terms of threshold or more VO2 Max improvements. So far I could only found once such avenue called Pentose Phosphate Pathway (PPP) via D-Ribose . Lions go all out although for short periods via this pathway (and consume no Carbs) …….don’t shoot for this statement and I am only saying it because I know that this forum will research this further . Below is statement from Jack Kruse :

 

The Ketogenic Athlete Alert: The reason fat burning takes 12-24 months to get maximum ATP production, is because the PPP uses D-ribose as its energy intermediate chemical to replenish the products of ATP hydrolysis. It seems performance athletes and their trainers missed this pathway in human biochemistry. It is the holy grail for fueling maximal athletic performance, and belies the power behind the Ancient Pathway. This is also helps us understand why a lion, who eats nothing but protein and fat needs 20 hours a day to sleep, but a gazelle, who is a herbavore only needs to sleep 6 hours a day. A gazelle eats a diet high in carbohydrates that replenish ATP quickly, therefore they would not require lots of sleep renewal to replenish their ATP fast. Longer term this leaves them energy poor, but they can refuel fast to get away from their lion. Compare that to a lion who eats a ketogenic diet that uses the D-Ribose to replenish the energy substrates from the fat burning pathways. Because they need more D-Ribose from the Pentose Phosphate Pathway (PPP), they require more sleep renewal to get ATP levels higher.

 

Jack Kruse (http://www.jackkruse.com/april-2013-webinar/ )is bit controversial but so was Tim noakes or any of the others which are promoting the LCHF way although he is at the sharp end when it comes to this way of thinking and research. There is a lot of reading to do on his site and sometimes you get lost a bit unfortunately his work reads difficult at times , he is a neurosurgeon.

 

Unfortunately I don’t have the energy or time now to do more research and then try it on myself for know I am in awe of my recovery and sometimes I will cry while riding to think that at one stage I could hardly get of bed . I am so blessed that I can ride again and sometimes challenge my follow mates in races again.

 

I am highly introverted so it took me some time to compile this story , will post some of my labs in terms of trig , hemotogrit , thyroid , etc. All in all I am very healthy at the moment although I have days where my inflammation still gets the best of me but that happens more less now days then before.

 

Ch

SPY

[davetapson]

Hell of a first post, Spy!

 

Welcome.

[the nerd]

Yesterday i had a really fuzzy afternoon. (day 4 LCHF). today i feel better, bought some nuts and biltong for snacks and generally feeling clear.

 

Now my question, i am racing 94.7 on sunday and seeing as im only on day 5 i really dont want to consume any carbs. What do the people in the know suggest?

[jcza]

Yesterday i had a really fuzzy afternoon. (day 4 LCHF). today i feel better, bought some nuts and biltong for snacks and generally feeling clear.

 

Now my question, i am racing 94.7 on sunday and seeing as im only on day 5 i really dont want to consume any carbs. What do the people in the know suggest?

 

I'll probably get slaughtered for this but take carbs.................. or else just have a slow cruise around jozi.

[Topwine]

Hi All,

 

Below is a bit of my background and the Reason i was forced to go LCHF (Sometimes VLCHF).

 

I was diagnosed with Ankylosis spondylitis (AS) about 5 years ago. My rheumatologist put me on methotrexate.

 

 

 

Hi Spy

 

I am sorry to hear about your condition, but very happy to hear you are able to better control the pain with LC. You might like to read this article in your further studies and research. It might just provide you with some other options to try as well.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/tissue-destruction.shtml

ARTHRITIS AND NATURAL HORMONES

• 
   
  

A very healthy 71 year-old man was under his house repairing the foundation, when a support slipped and let the house fall far enough to break some facial bones. During his recovery, he developed arthritis in his hands. It is fairly common for arthritis to appear shortly after an accident, a shock, or surgery, and Han Selye's famous work with rats shows that when stress exhausts the adrenal glands (so they are unable to produce normal amounts of cortisone and related steroid hormones), arthritis and other "degenerative" diseases are likely to develop.

• 
   
  

But when this man went to his doctor to "get something for his arthritis," he was annoyed that the doctor insisted on giving him a complete physical exam, and wouldn't give him a shot of cortisone. The examination showed low thyroid function, and the doctor prescribed a supplement of thyroid extract, explaining that arthritis is one of the many symptoms of hypothyroidism. The patient agreed to take the thyroid, but for several days he grumbled about the doctor 'fixing something that wasn't wrong' with him, and ignoring his arthritis. But in less than two weeks, the arthritis had entirely disappeared. He lived to be 89, without a recurrence of arthritis. (He died iatrogenically, while in good health.)

 

Selye's work with the diseases of stress, and the anti-stress hormones of the adrenal cortex, helped many scientists to think more clearly about the interaction of the organism with its environment, but it has led others to focus too narrowly on hormones of the adrenal cortex (such as cortisol and cortisone), and to forget the older knowledge about natural resistance. There are probably only a few physicians now practicing who would remember to check for hypothyroidism in an arthritis patient, or in other stress-related conditions. Hypothyroidism is a common cause of adrenal insufficiency, but it also has some direct effects on joint tissues. In chronic hypothyroidism (myxedema and cretinism), knees and elbows are often bent abnormally.

[davetapson]

I'll probably get slaughtered for this but take carbs.................. or else just have a slow cruise around jozi.

 

What he said.

[Snytjie]

 

I've noticed a few members that does not appreciate the contributions of Mr Topwine. I do not know him at all, but I want to congratulate and thank him for keeping up with his valuable contributions. There are people on the list that do appreciate them and I have learned a lot by reading some things "from the other side". Thank you Sir!

 

 

I like to think that this is probably the most amicable thread on The Hub. Even those that "do(es) not appreciate" TW's comments do so with good manners. Maturity, I say!

 

I personally also welcome his contribution to balance and objectivity. It is very much needed by all seekers to come to a personal, contextualised and informed solution.

[DJTerblanche]

I suggest you read some more. Nutritional ketosis is a stressed state and not for everybody or healthy people, imho. There is many possible long term health consequences for healthy people, especially young growing people. Your body have to permanently rely on stress hormones like adrenaline and cortisol to break down tissues to provide the glucose it needs. Contrary to what you state, the body, in ketosis, not only run on ketones and glucose, but also fatty acids and amino acids.

 

The "study" you mention, is not a true study, but a n=1 experiment of an individual that is carbohydrate intolerant, so it is not a true reflexion of what is possible by a healthy carbohydrate/glucose tolerant individual. Just keep that in mind. But even that experiment proves the loss of top end power in ketosis.

 

Hi Topwine

 

Thanks for the reply. I aknowledge that NK might not be best for everybody. I did not know Peter Attia is in any way carbohydrate intolerant and couldn't find any information to support this.

 

According to a few studies you will only burn your own muscle protiene if your protiene intake is below what it is to support your muscles (repair and maintenance) and this is generally accepted to be between 1.2 -1.7g per kg body mass in athletes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18577776

 

Also if you are creating to big a daily deficit, then your body won't be able to support your glucose requirements and will start to use excess amino acids or burn your own muscle's in order to generate the required glucose. See this study on maximum defecit. Max calorie deficit works out to to be about fat in kg * 69

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15615615

 

I agree that your body also uses free fatty acids to provide fuel for most of your muscle. However there is some muscles/organs which cannot use this as fuel (like brain).

 

Here is a very nice calculator to assist someone in getting the correct amount of macro nutrients in a diet in order to not lose muscle mass while being on a ketogenic diet.

http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/

 

I have yet to find how a ketogenic diet can be detremintal to a healthy person without any odd disorders. I am open to any potential pitfalls and things I must look out for. I've read that leptin levels tend to decrease while on a LCHF diet. I plan to have a weekly or bi-weekly carb loading meal of pasta to replenish some glycogen muscle stores and perhaps raise any other hormones which is running low because of the LCHF diet.

 

Cheerz

Edited November 15, 2013 by DJTerblanche

[htone]

I'll probably get slaughtered for this but take carbs.................. or else just have a slow cruise around jozi.

 

Take carbs, otherwise you are going to BONK big time.

[htone]

HT - I know you have posted about this before, but this is now a long thread...

 

I'm going to get some bloods done, out of interest.

 

What do you recommend?

 

Minimum:

 

Cholesterol Total

LDL

HDL

Triglycerides

Glucose Fasting

HbA1c

 

If your plan allows it or you have funds, the below provide a range of insights, but may not be necessary for an initial screening

Us-CRP

S-uric acid

Insulin Fasting

G:I Ratio

Quicki Index

APO - A1

APO - B

APO B/A1 Risk

Vit D (25 OH)

Testosterone - Total

 

Free T4

S-TSH

PSA

[Helpmytrap]

I did not know Peter Attia is in any way carbohydrate intolerant and couldn't find any information to support this.

Watch this video to understand where Peter Attia comes from, well his views.

[Helpmytrap]

I had some blood work done just to check how my electrolytes were doing, thought I'd check thyroid and HbA1c while I was at it. Thyroid was fine and my HbA1c was 5.1%, I'm not sure what that indicates as I haven't researched the topic, doctor just said that below 6% was normal. My Magnesium is slightly low but nothing to worry about, I do take daily Mg supplements.

 

...

I have yet to find how a ketogenic diet can be detremintal to a healthy person without any odd disorders. I am open to any potential pitfalls and things I must look out for. I've read that leptin levels tend to decrease while on a LCHF diet. I plan to have a weekly or bi-weekly carb loading meal of pasta to replenish some glycogen muscle stores and perhaps raise any other hormones which is running low because of the LCHF diet.

...

NO GRAINS! Really. (granted that my exception is one plate of sushi every other week, I usually just have sashimi)

Pasta would be one of the worst choices you could make. Stick to veggies, healthier, more nutrient dense, no phytates (anti-nutrients), no gluten, not processed etc.

 

How to choose your produce: (guidelines)

High carb: veggies that grow below the ground, squashes and fruit.

Low carb: veggies that grow above the ground and leafy greens.