LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[DaleE]

If this post is trying to teach you how to suck eggs, I apologise and please ignore

 

What's an egg??? :D

No need for apologies ... My interest in Jc's approach is simply because it seems to me he is really making the most of the lCHF approach and it is clearly working for him.

I also spent second half of last year doing lots of MAF style training, but now been adding some intensity stuff - think 2 hr tempo rides or an hour of hill repeats - and seem to be struggling on energy.

My previous races were mostly of the endurance type (70-80% HRmax) for 4-6 hours. For these I'm happy with water, UCAN and refuelling with nuts/fats afterwards.

I'm now looking at shorter sprint races like Argus, hence the increase in the intensity work, and wondering if I should try some regular carb style fuel for a change. Hence the question of carbs for race only or also for training.

[jcza]

Dale I use a different approach for MTB and road as road races are generally over in 3 hours while on the MTB one needs to conserve energy because the race is longer. Road race is normally 1 x gel and 1 x bottle (half water/half coke) while on the MTB I'll take bottle with Hammer or similar and couple of gels. I also found that I need to be sure that my glycogen stores are full before I start which means I will have a muffin or similar 2 hours before race. On training days I'll have a glass of water or cuppa coffee and go - no eating pre-ride.

[davetapson]

What's an egg??? :D

No need for apologies ... My interest in Jc's approach is simply because it seems to me he is really making the most of the lCHF approach and it is clearly working for him.

I also spent second half of last year doing lots of MAF style training, but now been adding some intensity stuff - think 2 hr tempo rides or an hour of hill repeats - and seem to be struggling on energy.

My previous races were mostly of the endurance type (70-80% HRmax) for 4-6 hours. For these I'm happy with water, UCAN and refuelling with nuts/fats afterwards.

I'm now looking at shorter sprint races like Argus, hence the increase in the intensity work, and wondering if I should try some regular carb style fuel for a change. Hence the question of carbs for race only or also for training.

 

As a matter of interest I spent most of last year doing Maff style training as well. I found that although I had plenty endurance, I would get dropped pretty handily by more powerful riders.

 

I started looking around for a cure and started doing what Mike Posthumous explained in Full Suss - 20% of training as 6 x 4min (3min rests) high intensity intervals twice per week and the rest at very low intensity. Low intensity being even lower than Maff - Maff =131 for me, low intensity (Zone 1 and 2 Karvonen) being 119!

 

Now MP and his mates have found a study that shows 30secs HI 15sec off for 9min30 repeated 3 times produces appreciably better response to training than the longer intervals (e.g. 6 x 4 mins intervals). If you can survive it of course.

 

I'm going to start trying the 30s on / 15s off style - I commute and it's a lot easier to do a bunch of short sprints than to maintain a longer high intensity interval through traffic/robots/stop streets etc. And hopefully I'll get a better response.

 

Google "Twitter @MikePosthumus @BCapostagno" and you may find some details.

[DaleE]

 

I'm going to start trying the 30s on / 15s off style - I commute and it's a lot easier to do a bunch of short sprints than to maintain a longer high intensity interval through traffic/robots/stop streets etc.

 

Thanks, will give that a try. I suppose it's probably also a better approximation of a road race circumstances. With MTB the pace is pretty constant, but in road races the bunch is always surging as one after another the lads try to get ahead on the hills.

[deanbean]

Dave, that's similar to Tabata intervals

 

[McD23]

What's an egg??? :D

No need for apologies ... My interest in Jc's approach is simply because it seems to me he is really making the most of the lCHF approach and it is clearly working for him.

I also spent second half of last year doing lots of MAF style training, but now been adding some intensity stuff - think 2 hr tempo rides or an hour of hill repeats - and seem to be struggling on energy.

My previous races were mostly of the endurance type (70-80% HRmax) for 4-6 hours. For these I'm happy with water, UCAN and refuelling with nuts/fats afterwards.

I'm now looking at shorter sprint races like Argus, hence the increase in the intensity work, and wondering if I should try some regular carb style fuel for a change. Hence the question of carbs for race only or also for training.

Hi Dale,

I have been quiet strict lchf for a year and in that year steadily increased my training load and intensity, especially last month gearing up for Epic with 2 to 3 2/3hour tempo rides a week.

All my training started out with water and this worked fine I thought, until I passed the 2h45 mark with avg heart rate 80% and above and I would run out of energy quickly, same result with races.

I now think about what the race is likely to be, or if it a longer training session at higher intensity.

Racing I normally get by with 1 x energy bar consumed evenly over expected race time combined with one 750ml 32gi drink, if they have baby potato or banana at water stops I will take some in latter parts of race, this combo seems to work well for me and allows for 3 to 4h30 race times at well above 80% heart rate.

Training is water and a 32gi bar for tempo longer than 2 hours, interval sessions is water as I find the recovery in between allows me to stretch out the length of exercise even though I might finish with higher avg watts than equivalent tempo session that I do need to take some carb onboard.

I don't always consume the bar, have learnt to work out how my energy delivery is going to be and if I do actually need it to complete session at correct intensity.

I did attekwas now and was concerned about taking enough energy on so drank way more energy drink than usual, shorlty after 2 water stop I was hurling bright green 32gi everwhere !

Switched to water and baby potatoes at next 2 stops, nursed myself back over next hour, recoverd well and smashed last 3rd of course, 1h06 for 8bells section on Strava, finished 6h43.

Lesson learned stick with tried and tested and once trained you can go hard on less carbs.

[davetapson]

Dave, that's similar to Tabata intervals

Yeh - those were my thoughts exactly. Feels the same too.

 

It's the old story of stuff being rediscovered / reinvented all the time.

[Topwine]

Yeh - those were my thoughts exactly. Feels the same too.

 

It's the old story of stuff being rediscovered / reinvented all the time.

 

No , just repackaged and remarketed in new social media mass market. Ala Tim Noakes diet. Helps to sell a lot of books too.

[davetapson]

Will probably get slaughtered for posting pictures of poison here but this is what I raced on at attakwas. Had 2 x muffins and 500ml of water for breakfast. Had 2 x Powerbar gels, 1 x Vooma and 1 x Cyto. Gave the Energy Hp bar to one of the kids at side of road and still had 2 x gels left. Had 2 x bottles of Hammer Perpetuam, 2 x 32GI and 1 x Coke. Oh and a mini Barone at WP1.

Attakwas sounds epic. Might just have to schedule it for next year. And keep training through Christmas...

[Berg Man]

No , just repackaged and remarketed in new social media mass market. Ala Tim Noakes diet. Helps to sell a lot of books too.

 

That's so funny you mention that, I was thinking exactly the same thing. The other day on Ballz radio, he said he had sold 10 000 copies before Christmas.

 

One thing Noakes himself said is when something big comes out, follow the money trail.......

[jcza]

Attakwas sounds epic. Might just have to schedule it for next year. And keep training through Christmas...

 

Do it Dave its tough but its my favourite one day event. Spectacular scenery.

[Leon Besaans]

That's so funny you mention that, I was thinking exactly the same thing. The other day on Ballz radio, he said he had sold 10 000 copies before Christmas.

 

One thing Noakes himself said is when something big comes out, follow the money trail.......

 

Dont crucify Noakes, at least he has BIG balls to go out and sell a book. Free world this.

 

Just keep in mind this whole LCHF thing is not just coming from Noakes, their are hoardes of people (Taubes, Attia etc) that have led this debate long before he came along.

 

Regards

[Topwine]

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/91/3/578.long

 

Lack of suppression of circulating free fatty acids and hypercholesterolemia during weight loss on a high-fat, low-carbohydrate diet

 

 

Conclusions

 

In conclusion, our data indicate that a high-fat diet, instead of a calorie- and fat-restricted diet, increased LDL-cholesterol concentrations over 6 wk, and that this effect related at least in part to the lack of suppression of both fasting FFA and FFA measured hourly for 24 h. Despite this adverse effect, weight loss was not greater in the High Fat group. Thus, these data suggest that a high-fat diet may have adverse metabolic effects during active weight loss.

 

note : In fact, there was a 2-fold increase in 24-h FFA within the High Fat group between baseline and 6 wk (mean ± SD high-fat change: 4486 ± 2293 μmol/L; P < 0.0001) and a significant difference in 24-h FFA between groups (mean ± SD high-carbohydrate 24-h FFA compared with high-fat 24-h FFA: 4798 ± 1373 compared with 9686 ± 1801 μmol/L, respectively; P < 0.0001)

 

So what does this mean? It means a HFLC diet liberates a lot more free fatty acids than a higher carb diet in your blood. If you are eating PUFA's, or have been eating them your whole life, these PUFA FFA are preferentially liberated and they are highly oxidising causing a multitude of metabolic problems over time.

 

FFA also cause insulin resistance and increased blood glucose.

[krl747]

http://ajcn.nutritio...t/91/3/578.long

 

Lack of suppression of circulating free fatty acids and hypercholesterolemia during weight loss on a high-fat, low-carbohydrate diet

 

 

Conclusions

 

In conclusion, our data indicate that a high-fat diet, instead of a calorie- and fat-restricted diet, increased LDL-cholesterol concentrations over 6 wk, and that this effect related at least in part to the lack of suppression of both fasting FFA and FFA measured hourly for 24 h. Despite this adverse effect, weight loss was not greater in the High Fat group. Thus, these data suggest that a high-fat diet may have adverse metabolic effects during active weight loss.

 

note : In fact, there was a 2-fold increase in 24-h FFA within the High Fat group between baseline and 6 wk (mean ± SD high-fat change: 4486 ± 2293 μmol/L; P < 0.0001) and a significant difference in 24-h FFA between groups (mean ± SD high-carbohydrate 24-h FFA compared with high-fat 24-h FFA: 4798 ± 1373 compared with 9686 ± 1801 μmol/L, respectively; P < 0.0001)

 

So what does this mean? It means a HFLC diet liberates a lot more free fatty acids than a higher carb diet in your blood. If you are eating PUFA's, or have been eating them your whole life, these PUFA FFA are preferentially liberated and they are highly oxidising causing a multitude of metabolic problems over time.

 

FFA also cause insulin resistance and increased blood glucose.

 

I see more and more articles saying that Cholesterol is not the problem, but rather inflammation and we should focus more on what causes the inflammation. What are you thoughts?

[Topwine]

I see more and more articles saying that Cholesterol is not the problem, but rather inflammation and we should focus more on what causes the inflammation. What are you thoughts?

 

I agree. Cholesterol is a protective adaption mechanism. Ray Peat and Tim Noakes is in agreement on cholesterol and statins. For a great article on cholesterol, read this, http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/cholesterol-longevity.shtml

[davetapson]

Sorry if this link has been posted before - Noakes talking about LCHF.

 

The thing that was interesting to me was he mentions it was after three months that his running really took off - and he is highly carb intolerant. So, even for the carb intolerant, there is a period of adaption that is months rather than weeks.