Two Riders Out Of Absa Cape Epic Due To Doping

[GLuvsMtb]

Either way it's theft, no sugar coating will change the fact. One by force the another not, still stealing, innit.

Sure, but do you jail both for 5 years?

[DJR]

It's not excuses, MooToo. It's called reality. Read my posts again.

 

I would venture that 99% of pros and amateurs have 'doped' or 'cheated' if you want to enforce the rules as strict as it was written.

 

Why can teams get outside assistance last year, wheel one day and rain jackets the other, when it's against the rules and they know it. Slapped with a small time penalty. Another rule gets broken, life time ban. No consistency.

 

Perhaps it is up to the cycling "powers that be" (UCI) then to rationalise the banned substance list. A lot of the stuff on there really doesn't seem to be performance enhancing at all, or dangerous. If they can take caffeine off the list (which IS performance enhancing and proved so scientifically), then they can do it for the other red herrings too. That will also create less ambiguity, which can only be good for the sport.

[andydude]

Are you saying that stealing a loaf of bread is the same as hijacking a armored cash in transit van?

 

Have you read my posts?!

 

What I'm saying is exactly the opposite in the sense that stealing a loaf is NOT the same as hijacking an armored cash van...

 

But the Epic is saying that it is exactly the same.

[GLuvsMtb]

 

Have you read my posts?!

 

What I'm saying is exactly the opposite in the sense that stealing a loaf is NOT the same as hijacking an armored cash van...

 

But the Epic is saying that it is exactly the same.

You were saying that accepting a rain jacket is the same as testing positive for a banned substance when you said that they both should carry the same punishment. I agree that using cough meds and using EPO is different, but the race jacket example cannot feature in the same argument. The race commissar had 2 choices: allow riders to take on extra clothing or neutralize the stage to ensure rider safety.

[andydude]

Again, I'm against taking performance enhancing substances, but even the UCI looks at things like what substance it was, first or second offense, etc. and hands out appropriate punishment. One of the two from the OP's post got three months, the other a year or two? Why does the Epic try to override good common principles and just lay down a blanket life time ban? And how convenient that when the rule came in in 2012 they decided not to do it retroactively?

 

In my opinion it's more a marketing ploy than actually trying to get rid of dopers. If they feel so strongly about cheating, they should give lufe time bans to everyone breaking the rules of which doping is only one.

[andydude]

You were saying that accepting a rain jacket is the same as testing positive for a banned substance when you said that they both should carry the same punishment. I agree that using cough meds and using EPO is different, but the race jacket example cannot feature in the same argument. The race commissar had 2 choices: allow riders to take on extra clothing or neutralize the stage to ensure rider safety.

 

 

 

 

You were saying that accepting a rain jacket is the same as testing positive for a banned substance when you said that they both should carry the same punishment. I agree that using cough meds and using EPO is different, but the race jacket example cannot feature in the same argument. The race commissar had 2 choices: allow riders to take on extra clothing or neutralize the stage to ensure rider safety.

 

A rule is a rule. Of which doping is one. The Epic is

being inconsistent in that breaking one law which could have varying degrees gets one life time ban while the other rules carry different punishments.

[DJR]

...................... Why does the Epic try to override good common principles and just lay down a blanket life time ban? And how convenient that when the rule came in in 2012 they decided not to do it retroactively?

 

In my opinion it's more a marketing ploy than actually trying to get rid of dopers. If they feel so strongly about cheating, they should give lufe time bans to everyone breaking the rules of which doping is only one.

 

I think it probably is so because the Epic (as a brand) can be damaged very severely by a doping scandal. Less so by other cheating or breaking of rules. If it was my brand, I would also do whatever it takes to protect it. The Tour de France is much bigger and better established and even that can suffer hugely from doping scandals, although it is likely to survive (as Mr Armstrong proved). The Epic is much younger and a lot more likely to be completely killed off by a major doping scandal. I have sympathy for their very hard line stance if seen from this perspective.

[GLuvsMtb]

 

 

 

 

 

 

A rule is a rule. Of which doping is one. The Epic is

being inconsistent in that breaking one law which could have varying degrees gets one life time ban while the other rules carry different punishments.

Sure. Like murder and rape and theft are treated differently. There is a knee jerk about doping and that the amateurs are the martyrs at present. Proposing the same punishment for accepting a jacket on a near sub zero stage (like half of the field did that day) is daft. That said, a lifetime ban for taking cough meds is also not the answer, especially if you are not a pro cyclist. Out of interest, do we know what these 'dopers' tested positive of? The problem with this type of press release is that it creates more uncertainty as no one knows the full story.

 

This doping stance of the Epic is a pre cursor to it becoming a full pro event the next 5 years. The equation is simple. As soon as the TV rights revenue is high enough the event will go full pro.

[andydude]

Sure. Like murder and rape and theft are treated differently. There is a knee jerk about doping and that the amateurs are the martyrs at present. Proposing the same punishment for accepting a jacket on a near sub zero stage (like half of the field did that day) is daft. That said, a lifetime ban for taking cough meds is also not the answer, especially if you are not a pro cyclist. Out of interest, do we know what these 'dopers' tested positive of? The problem with this type of press release is that it creates more uncertainty as no one knows the full story.

 

This doping stance of the Epic is a pre cursor to it becoming a full pro event the next 5 years. The equation is simple. As soon as the TV rights revenue is high enough the event will go full pro.

 

The article only said, " SAIDS confirmed this week that the second rider was given a three-month suspension for what Cycling South Africa described last year as an “adverse analytical finding in an in-competition test” in May, 2013."

 

My gripe is only that they are very selective in enforcing the life time ban. Kevin is very adamant that no cheating is acceptable, but then he focuses only on one rule. If he is so against cheating then any cheating/rule breaking should result in a life time ban according to his own logic (which I think would be wrong).

 

Hypothetically, if there is a rule that says receiving a wheel from outside is not allowed, and it happens and they still win the Epic even after a time penalty, is it fair? What's the difference then to cheating by taking EPO and winning the Epic? I'm not saying this is what I believe, just sketching a scenario.

[Witkop]

This is a storm in a tea cup. If authorities were to enforce antidoping on all levels of sport, then amateur sport would die almost immediately.

 

From a running perspective, if they did dope control on the bronze medal (and even the back end of silver) at comrades then there would be almost a 70% positive return. But the don't, the focus on the professional runner, the podium finishers.

 

However, what the Cape Epic is trying to do is to please everyone, they wanting to have an elite UCI event AND a challenging funride as well. This does not mix.

 

Cyclists must accept that if you enter the Cape Epic you are entering an international UCI sanctioned event, you are now a professional/Elite cyclist. You have to obey the events and the UCI rules. failing to do that makes you a cheat.

 

So if you enter and cannot do the distance and need a bit of "pick me up" then you are a cheat, fraud and liar. Live with it.

[GoLefty!!]

A rule is a rule. Of which doping is one. The Epic is

being inconsistent in that breaking one law which could have varying degrees gets one life time ban while the other rules carry different punishments.

 

Now you're wanting black and white. Love arguing with yourself don't you.

 

If is common practice in society to attach a weighting to a crime. A homeless mother stealing a loaf of bread to a feed a hungry child is not the same as a cash in transit van heist. One is a crime of necessity the other of greed. The concept of "reasonableness" comes into the equation.

 

Doping is considered to be amongst the worst crimes in sport. Therefore sporing bodies are at liberty to attach a different set of incentives to discourage doping up to an including life time bans.

 

As I have stated before, there are plenty of way for an amateur to declare what medication they have used 6 months prior to the event they intend participating in. Full disclosure never got anyone banned, yet you seem to suggest that it will.

 

There are plenty of amateurs using EPO in the cycling fraternity and n all facets of sport. its a dirty dangerous practice and should be stamped out. High school kids being pumped with growth hormone so that they can bulk up for rugby results in kids not using being paralysed from the neck down... thats why there should be zero tolerance.

 

If you have a case of mistaken use then you have the opportunity to present it but les face it, the real cheatshave used every excuse to the hilt and few arbitration committees are going to listen to you tell yourstory retroactively.

 

Declare up front, and provide documentation including doctors scripts and you'll be standing on solid ground. Without you're rightfully F**ked because you were stupid.

 

You know the rules, they're the same for everyone participating.

[andydude]

Ai Lefty, I'm just trying to show the inconsistency of the rule's punishment compared to other rules. The Epic is being both black and what, but also grey.

 

The situation you sketch is just not practical for amateurs, although it sounds great in theory.

 

Doping isn't necessarily the worst rule to break in sport, in my opinion. The worst rule to break is the one giving you the biggest advantage.

 

What you are saying is that if you are caught for a banned substance, no matter what it is or whether it even gives an advantage, you should be banned for life?

 

All I'm saying is that if your answer is yes, then shouldn't you also ban for life any other rule breakers?

[Witkop]

http://winningateverything.com/files/2011/06/drugprevention.jpg

[GoLefty!!]

Ai Lefty, I'm just trying to show the inconsistency of the rule's punishment compared to other rules. The Epic is being both black and what, but also grey.

 

The situation you sketch is just not practical for amateurs, although it sounds great in theory.

 

Doping isn't necessarily the worst rule to break in sport, in my opinion. The worst rule to break is the one giving you the biggest advantage.

 

What you are saying is that if you are caught for a banned substance, no matter what it is or whether it even gives an advantage, you should be banned for life?

 

All I'm saying is that if your answer is yes, then shouldn't you also ban for life any other rule breakers?

 

not practical? I think now you're just arguing for the sake of it.

 

I used that exact methodology before I rode the AC in 2008 as I had Flu, and bronchitis in the months before the event and used a cortisone inhaler to control asthma. I filled all the details in on the medical form and kept the scripts. I never needed them but I read the rules and took the precautions I deemed necessary.

 

Impractical?? *&^@%

[SwissVan]

 

So "SwissVan" when were you appointed the official health police inforser seeing that now no rider with suspected healh issues are even allowed to participate in rides. So apart from asking riders to be tested for performance boosters, we are now also going to do test for being over weight, under weight, if you had a burger or beer the night before, or heaven forbid, a smoke!

Maybe you and KV just want to make a name for yourselfs?

 

 

There is no line, your either did or did not.

Same rules must be applied to all, even if you are plonking at the back.

Anti doping is not only about stopping cheating, it (should) be about protecting the health of riders.

 

I like what KV says hear, someone buy him a beer from me

 

“I don’t care whether a rider has been banned for three months or three years, if you cheat then we don’t have time for you - even if you are not earning a living from cycling, as is the case with these riders,” said Cape Epic founder Kevin Vermaak. “This is a new era in cycling, things are changing and I don’t want to entertain anybody who still feels the need to dope.”

 

 

Nee Bat, I just want to buy Kevin Vermaak a beer for doing what I think is the right thing.

 

WRT your comment about burgers, weight, smoking etc.... that's ridiculous and I think you are reading to much into what I said about anti doping being there to protect riders health.

 

These guys who get caught taking banned substances during or before a major event should not cry about it or come up with excuses, they either did it on purpose or through ignorance. In this day and age ignorance is not an excuse.

[SwissVan]

Well I actually don't give a dam what you think. However you made me go and read SwissVan's post again, and yes maybe I did not read it correctly. Here I am referring to a nanny society where we are constantly being told how and what to do with regards to our health.

 

I am against doping more specifically pro's or people doing races for recognition or money. If a tale ender want to stuff their life up or cheat just to beat their friend, then they must do so, and hopefully one day they will be found out and be put under the spotlight by those they betrayed. So to "SwissVan" I apologies,

 

and to KV, accept my Epic entry and I might be more positive about you too.

 

 

My tip for getting an Epic entry, try enter from an exotic location outside of SA...somewhere like the Maldives...worked for me