The NON-LCHF thread

[jcza]

What is ludicrous is how we have been bought by big business. The diet we have been eating for the past 30 years is not normal. Meat and vegetables are normal. Tons of sugar is not normal. Tons of highly processed carbs is not normal. Sugary muffins the size of your head is not normal. Only eating the muscles of animals is not normal

 

If you don't believe me go to a supermarket and watch what people are paying for. Not what they say they are eating. Look at what goes into the trolley. Then look at the shape of the person pushing the trolley.

 

Sugar in coffee. Sugar in tea. Sugar in biscuits. Sugar in just about everything. It's unnatural. The massive worldwide sugar production is abnormal.

 

There. That's my rant

 

Spot on.....as you say look at the shape of the person pushing the trolley. Consuming calorie dense food with no exercise. I checked the nutritional content of the M&B mega muffins and its equal to half my daily intake! 

 

However, when training I believe sugar is ok and essential. 

[Baaisikilist]

I've also just taken a second stab at LCHF, hence my interest in jcza's mission and blog.

I've found for the second time, that eating either way, my weight doesn't seem to change. I'm not what I'd consider overweight, but I can definitely afford to lose 8-10kg's to get to 70kg's or less, which will certainly create a more favourable power to weight ratio.

 

I'm assuming that on moderate carbs, high protein, low fat, my total daily calorie intake is probably the same as what it is on LCHF, and obviously why both seem to keep me at 78kg's.

 

So I too am planning on keeping things relatively low carb (as soon as I've finished the bulk supply of streaky bacon in the fridge), or at least having my carbs earlier in the day, then phasing them out from around lunch time.

 

I've decided that my milk will remain full cream (there's just too much to like about coffee with real milk and not the see-through stuff I've been drinking for years).

 

I'm going to experiment with carb cycling as I did as a bodybuilder for years (just no chemicals anymore). Having a slightly higher carb intake on Tuesdays and Thursday's, my hard interval days (which are being done in the evenings at the moment, till summer comes and the sun is up early enough to ride before graft.

 

Wednesday's I have an easy recovery ride, so I'll try to almost eliminate carbs entirely for the day.

Friday's is another easy recovery ride, or a full rest day depending on the duration and type of intervals on Tuesday and Thursday. I'll keep the carbs moderate on the Friday, allowing enough glycogen to fill the tank for Saturday, which is a longer high intensity ride, or a race.

 

Sat I'll take advantage of the longer, harder session and reward myself with another high-ish carb day, to get any cravings out of my system so I can have it out of the way for 7 more days.

 

Sunday is a long L2/recovery type ride, which I'll have some carbs during, but then from after lunch, back to minimal carbs, and then another very low carb day on Monday, which is pretty much an international cycling rest day.

 

I just need to experiment with the timing, and quantity of carbs on days that I'm upping them.

Like, how much to eat, and how long before the session should I consume them for them to be effective...

[flymango]

I thought the foundation of LCHF was ketosis and that it takes a while (several consecutive days) to wean off glycogen from synthesis of carbohydrates? How does one flip between LCHF during day-to-day or endurance and LFHC during intensity within this concept? Doesn't the button take days to switch on and off?

[TALUS]

This I like. I do something similar but a bit more seat of my pants. In summary: basis is high protein and trying to keep the kilojoules relative to training. Since fat ingestion is nearly unavoidable it really means the carbs gets adjusted depending on training racing.

[jcza]

Blog updated - http://eatingtotrain.blogspot.com/2015/07/another-big-week.html 

[jcza]

This I like. I do something similar but a bit more seat of my pants. In summary: basis is high protein and trying to keep the kilojoules relative to training. Since fat ingestion is nearly unavoidable it really means the carbs gets adjusted depending on training racing.

 

What is the benefit of high protein? 

[Tumbleweed]

Carbs seem to make me lose weight. I've upped my intake because, well, it's been cold...and I've still managed somehow to drop quite a few kilos. 

[tombeej]

What is the benefit of high protein? 

 

Protein has the highest thermic effect of the three. Up to five times greater than carbs. And fat has very little thermic effect (one possible reason why some people don't lose any weight on LCHF).

 

Thermic effect of different foods is an important part of the discussion. Some foods make you burn more calories to digest than others, which means with the right exercise programme you burn more calories during the day for longer.

 

Protein also has higher satiety scores than carbs as well (if you don't believe in a LCHF diet), i.e. helps you stay fuller for longer.

 

The LCHF diet says keep protein very moderate, but that's because they want the body to burn ketones for energy and avoid the process of gluconeogenesis. If you don't follow that diet (I follow a more balanced paleo diet) then higher protein is good.

 

Two articles:

1. The Thermic Effect of Food

2. Glucagon, Dietary Protein, and Low-Carbohydrate Diets

[BDF]

but beer doesn't count as man made I hope.

 

Fermentation of natural sugars found in hops - this is totally natural!

[NotSoBigBen]

A lot of this is just too 'scientific' for a mere mortal like myself hence my 'I know what I should and shouldn't eat' approach.

 

I wonder how many are put off by that and so just follow some Internet eating per day food list or weighless points system?

 

One day when I'm big I'll be able to make and follow a structured plan like baaisaaiklist has and get that fast 

[jcza]

Protein has the highest thermic effect of the three. Up to five times greater than carbs. And fat has very little thermic effect (one possible reason why some people don't lose any weight on LCHF).

 

Thermic effect of different foods is an important part of the discussion. Some foods make you burn more calories to digest than others, which means with the right exercise programme you burn more calories during the day for longer.

 

Protein also has higher satiety scores than carbs as well (if you don't believe in a LCHF diet), i.e. helps you stay fuller for longer.

 

The LCHF diet says keep protein very moderate, but that's because they want the body to burn ketones for energy and avoid the process of gluconeogenesis. If you don't follow that diet (I follow a more balanced paleo diet) then higher protein is good.

 

Two articles:

1. The Thermic Effect of Food

2. Glucagon, Dietary Protein, and Low-Carbohydrate Diets

 

But surely for fuelling training & racing protein is a poor choice? I understand the benefit of protein for recovery. 

[tombeej]

But surely for fuelling training & racing protein is a poor choice? I understand the benefit of protein for recovery. 

 

My response wasn't about fuelling for training/racing specifically. Just about eating in general.

 

I certainly agree that for racing, protein is pretty irrelevant to the discussion.

 

But in terms of training, there's lots of info about the benefits of including some protein in your on-bike fuelling during very long endurance sessions. Speeds up the recovery process if you have some protein in your carb drink. That's why the Doctor has formulated his Cadence Marathon with protein, which I certainly buy into.

 

From the Cadence Nutrition website:

"Optimal carbohydrate / protein ratio (5:1). Numerous studies have proven the efficacy of mixed protein and carbohydrate ingestion in comparison to carbohydrate alone. Mixed carbohydrate / protein drinks reduce exercise related muscle damage and catabolism and may improve exercise performance."

 

For my really long rides, or all day mtb rides in the mountains my favourite hard food is still the PVM bar. It has about 5g of protein per bar (ratio 1:6) which I'm sure helps to minimise any muscle catabolism during the day, and with recovery afterwards. And of course, they are yummy too. And waterproof (I've done a lot of whitewater kayaking with PVM bars in my lifejacket. Lots of spearfishing with them too when out on the boat - just gooi them in my dive bag).

[BDF]

I believe that some of the keys to good health naturally lend themselves to good athletic performance. Sometimes the process of correcting something that has gone wrong requires a temporary time of non-balance. For example, if over time we have let ourselves get fat, we need an over-correction to bring our weight back to "normal" (whatever we think that should be for ourselves). There is a danger in thinking that this over-correction should become a way of life. When we are back to "normal" we need to re-adjust to maintain that normality.

 

In terms of pure diet - I am fully with those that encourage balance. Balance being eating the correct food categories (all of them) in the right proportions needed to sustain the level of activity we engage in. If we cut carbs completely we will cause issues in the long run which protein alone cannot fix. Equally, if we cut fats completely, we eliminate highly needed brain and nerve nutrients and acids. We need carbs, fats, proteins, minerals, fibres, essential fatty acids and micro-nutrients in our bodies in order to keep it all working properly.

 

The body is incredibly complex and amazingly adaptive to what we put it through but all the parts need the correct fuels to keep it all functioning properly in the long term. If the goal is only some short terms quick fixes (for weight or competition), we may well be setting ourselves up for long term problems. Part of this is keeping an eye on the quality of the things we eat. I go along with a more natural approach - cut out refined foods and sugars. Generally the refining process removes all the things that are good. Eating meat from animals filled with antibiotics and growth hormones is not as good as eating meat without all these chemical in them. Similarly, pesticides and fertilizers end up inside us when we eat plant matter that has been treated with them.

 

Anyway, enough said.

 

Thanks for the insights from your blog JC.

[TALUS]

The importance of proteien is very well explained by tombeej. Just a few added thoughts.

 

Training also involves continious recovery of muscle. The electron microscope pictures of muscles after an endurance event resembles a explosion with disrupted muscle fibres everywhere. Some training is aimed at "stressing" the muscle with the recovery leading to strengthening.

 

The emphasis on adaptation of energy pathways is largely exagerated in Joe Blow.

 

As has been said many times it is a power to weight game. Firstly lose weight. Secondly up power. Lean muscle mass. for this you need good quality proteien.

 

"Adaptation of energy pathways" - altering the way the body works? I am not biting. Darwin showed that takes several lifetimes to happen.

[Sniffie]

The importance of proteien is very well explained by tombeej. Just a few added thoughts.

 

Training also involves continious recovery of muscle. The electron microscope pictures of muscles after an endurance event resembles a explosion with disrupted muscle fibres everywhere. Some training is aimed at "stressing" the muscle with the recovery leading to strengthening.

 

The emphasis on adaptation of energy pathways is largely exagerated in Joe Blow.

 

As has been said many times it is a power to weight game. Firstly lose weight. Secondly up power. Lean muscle mass. for this you need good quality proteien.

 

"Adaptation of energy pathways" - altering the way the body works? I am not biting. Darwin showed that takes several lifetimes to happen.

Ketogenesis must have been part of human evolution. That is what enabled our forefathers, and indeed up to this day some remaining hunter gatherer tribes,  to survive extended periods of famine. The alternative pathways for energy production already exists within each of us. Perhaps it just takes some time to "switch on the genes" that has been lying dormant for hundreds of years?

[Sniffie]

I thought the foundation of LCHF was ketosis and that it takes a while (several consecutive days) to wean off glycogen from synthesis of carbohydrates? How does one flip between LCHF during day-to-day or endurance and LFHC during intensity within this concept? Doesn't the button take days to switch on and off?

The switch from fat burner to carb burner happens instantly. Within a few minutes you can feel energy levels rising after consuming carbs. From own experience the switch back to ketosis takes longer, but in my case not longer than 24 hours, if strict carb restriction is applied. The consumption of medium chain triglyceride oil, like coconut oil, helps the ketosis process along.