The NON-LCHF thread

[GrumpyOldGuy]

I'm concerned to hear you say you were 'attacked' for your question on that thread (don't remember that at all, it was a very welcoming thread from what I recall, but then again I'm getting old).

 

I'm sure there are still a lot of cardiologists - especially from the older generation - who are still stuck in the old dogma. It might even be unlikely that they'll ever change their views. People can get very defensive when their long-held belief systems are challenged.

 

For every 1 cardiologist holding on to their established beliefs that fats are bad for you, there are 2 young cardiologists challenging those views.

 

The UK is one of the countries where these specialists are standing up and saying the numbers don't support what they'd been taught at varsity. The evidence is pointing them in the opposite direction.

 

Grumpy, you based your thinking on the response of one person, your cardiologist. What if you'd asked another who said fats are not to be feared? Would you have gone with them? Perhaps instead of putting all your faith in the opinion of one person, expand your research a little more?

 

Like this cardiologist, for example?

 

Lastly, a personal story:

My sister is a dietitian. For 10 years she lived in the UK (came back 2 years ago) where she ran the dietetics component of the bariatric unit at St Thomas Hospital in London. If you sat down with her you'll hear of her extreme frustration at what she found after returning to SA. She says it feels like she's stepped back in time. SA dietitians (and obviously many cardiologists) are so far behind the curve. They are holding onto this old thinking, often quite aggressively, which she admits has shocked her a bit. The UK and the rest of Europe have left us behind on this subject. It's got to the point where she's given up even trying to hold conversations with some of her old varsity mates. For them, fats are bad and that's it. Spend an evening with her and you'll have a wealth of knowledge to tap into. Evidence based stuff. From cardiologists, physicians, GPs and oncologists to nutritional scientists and regular dietitians: people who are at the forefront of these issues, the ones doing the actual research, and dealing with actual patients. The highly skilled people running departments of international recognised 1st world hospitals and research labs. Not "conspiracy theorists that have been rejected by the medical community".

 

As usual, this is a touchy subject for some. I've said my piece about fats and hopefully sparked some interest in a few fence-sitters to perhaps do their own research and come to their own conclusions.

 

But that's where I'll leave it. Going to jump off this bus early. Over to the rest of you.... bye now.

 

 

 

Yeah, perhaps, this may be so, however I also have no reason to doubt my cardiologist's experience or knowledge either. 

 

You see, I have a fairly simple philosophy in life, I am an engineer / businessman with a life history in business and heavy engineering.

 

I am not a doctor, optician, cardiologist or surgeon, I don't try and google myself well when i have a health issue, i go visit one of them and gladly pay them for their expertise and knowledge.

 

Strangely enough, mostly they also reciprocated the philosophy, they will gladly tell me they don't know stainless steel from galvanised plate and can i please assist.

 

Unfortunately Google has created a world of armchair experts on everything from diet to space exploration, and they are becoming constantly more vociferous.  

 

Anyway, thanks to my medical friends, so far I am still here, and, so far, (touch wood) still healthy enough to run, cycle, hike and do almost any physical activity I choose. I think I'll just carry on listening to their advise over Google's.

 

Old school and boring,... I know.! 

 

As for that thread been welcoming.......perhaps, if you subscribed to the majority view, otherwise, not so much.

[HappyMartin]

For a long time "science" told us that we couldn't trust our thirst and we would all die of dehydration if we didn't drink truck loads of scientifically formulated sports drinks. Turned out to be a money making scam of epic proportions that actually killed a lot of people. It did sell a lot of sugar though at roughly 10 times the price if you bought sugar at the local supermarket. This is not conspiracy theory or conjecture. It is fact.

 

The same thing has been happening for decades in the food industry. Cereal makers earn billions making what they call a healthy alternative breakfast. It's rubbish. You want carbs for breakfast make porridge. If there is any science behind the rubbish we are eating it's the science of economics. The science of making money.

 

Remember it was not that long ago that 7 out of 10 doctors reccomeded camel cigarettes. Before you decide who to trust simply follow the money. The few rands Noakes makes selling a few books doesn't exactly compare to the billions in profits made by Kellogs selling their low fat breakfast cereals.

 

I don't follow low carb let me say that straight up, but believing fat makes you fat is the same science that tells you eating a lion will make you brave.

[GrumpyOldGuy]

For a long time "science" told us that we couldn't trust our thirst and we would all die of dehydration if we didn't drink truck loads of scientifically formulated sports drinks. Turned out to be a money making scam of epic proportions that actually killed a lot of people. It did sell a lot of sugar though at roughly 10 times the price if you bought sugar at the local supermarket. This is not conspiracy theory or conjecture. It is fact.

 

The same thing has been happening for decades in the food industry. Cereal makers earn billions making what they call a healthy alternative breakfast. It's rubbish. You want carbs for breakfast make porridge. If there is any science behind the rubbish we are eating it's the science of economics. The science of making money.

 

Remember it was not that long ago that 7 out of 10 doctors reccomeded camel cigarettes. Before you decide who to trust simply follow the money. The few rands Noakes makes selling a few books doesn't exactly compare to the billions in profits made by Kellogs selling their low fat breakfast cereals.

 

I don't follow low carb let me say that straight up, but believing fat makes you fat is the same science that tells you eating a lion will make you brave.

Maybe I should just clear this up, my cardiologist did not say eating fat makes you fat, Iam with you on this point and most normal people would be too, he said eating high quantities of saturated animal fat, and other high fat foods like cream, high fat yogurt, biltong etc will increase your cholesterol. I personally concur.

 

Did I not read somewhere that Noakes has even quietly changed later editions of his book from "consume as much dairy as you like" to "consume moderate dairy"? - I do believe so and this is a radical turnaround,... obviously swiftly passed over by the Noakes faithful.

 

I also agree on the breakfast cereal bit, there is probably more nutrition in the cardboard box than the contents but again as i said it boils down to convenience, its a lot easier to drop some ready made cereal into a bowl, add milk and Bobs your uncle, making porridge is time consuming and requires a cleaning up process, people are notoriously "time poor" today, big business has just picked up on this and exploited it.

[Sniffie]

Chris Horner lived on McDonalds, doughnuts, burritos and Snicker bars washed down with gallons of Coke for years. You can read about it here - http://chrishornerracing.com/articles/2010/1/8/nutrition.html

 

Clearly when you riding that much you can get away with it. He subsequently made some changes after injury. 

I think nobody is denying the fact that it is possible to win races, even at pro elite level, on a diet like Chris is describing above. The massive amounts of oxygen "burned" by a pro cyclist like Horner though, leads to free radical formation at a gigantic scale. With a diet like his, almost null and void of any antioxidants, he is setting himself up for big health problems down the line. I think it is a plain stupid move by him to be even publishing something like this. Many aspiring young pros, and even worse recreational cyclists, might be reading this and thinking it is OK to stuff their pie holes full of all this crap. Just because you are burning off all the calories does not mean you can eat any crap without serious health consequences.

[Eldron]

I think nobody is denying the fact that it is possible to win races, even at pro elite level, on a diet like Chris is describing in above. The massive amounts of oxygen "burned" by a pro cyclist like Horner though, leads to free radical formation at a gigantic scale. With a diet like his, almost null and void of any antioxidants, he is setting himself up for big health problems down the line. I think it is plain stupid move by him to be even publishing something like this. Many aspiring young pros, and even worse recreational cyclists, might be reading this and thinking it is OK to stuff their pie holes full of all this crap. Just because you are burning off all the calories does not mean you can eat any crap without serious health consequences.

 

Be wary of the free radical trap. Recent studies have shown that anti oxidants have little to no effect on the reduction of free radicals.

 

Not eating junk really should be the cornerstone of anyone's diet.

[Sniffie]

How do know the incidence of metabolic diseases have risen? Very common statement - no basis. How many people had their cholesterol, bloodsugar or bloodpressure tested 50years ago? And 200years ago? Why are people living longer now than ever before. The current extended life expectancy (85+) is certainly not due to any new diets or misguided medical facts.

 

What did all those people that "died in their sleep" for years die from?

It is a common fact that most westernized societies are becoming fatter and fatter. Incidence of obesity, type II diabetes, and cardiovascular disease are sky rocketing. The Americans, Britts and Saffas are fatter than ever before. How can you deny that the incidence of metabolic diseases are not rising?

 

I thought that it was common knowledge that the biggest contributor to the higher life expectancy of us as a human race was due to the fact, that thanks to proper medical care, the incidence of child mortality fell dramatically. Then there is also factors like proper sanitation, victories against infections and parasitic diseases, cleaner drinking water, antibiotics, improved medical procedures etc.

 

I suppose you are referring to the low carb diet as a "new" diet. In fact humans have been eating low carb, for millions of years. One would have to eat a bucket full of edible leaves, shoots, tubers and sprouts to ingest say 30 g of carbs. 30g of protein and / or fat on the other hand would only mean a few hands full of grubs, tree nuts or birds eggs. Not to mention the enormous amounts of fat and protein in the carcass of even a small antelope.

 

Talus I ask you to read just one article with an open mind:

http://www.diabetes-book.com/big-fat-lie/

 

If, after reading this, can you unequivocally state that in your mind  there is not even the smallest thought that perhaps there could be some benefit in reducing carbs (especially refined and manufactured ones like breads, cereals and sugars) in favor of healthy fats, even a portion of saturated fat?

 

If you still think along these lines: Saturated fat = high cholestrol = cardiovascular disease = early death, then why:

1 Did hunter gatherer tribes like the Inuit and San, to name just 2, survive for millions of years on a diet comprising lots of fat, less protein and trace amounts of carbs?

2 Do some individuals of these hunter gatherer tribes, if they are lucky enough to survive infancy and the perils of nature, beast and famine, reach a healthy old age, even by modern standards, on such an "unhealthy" diet?

3 Do the French have one of the lowest incidences of cardiovascular disease in Europe despite their high consumption of animal fats? To make it even more baffling the French are still one the nations in Europe with the most smokers per capita. I am sure you have heard of the French paradox?

4 Do people that follow a LCHF lifestyle find that with time their blood lipids improve? Yes total cholestrol numbers rise, but so does HDL cholestrol (the beneficial one) In fact the ratio of HDL to LDL improves with a low carb approach. Triglycerides also drops as a result of this lifestyle. There has been numerous accounts of this on the old, as well as the new, LCHF thread on the Hub. I can also vouch for this tendency. My lipid numbers have shown a steady improvement in the 3 years since starting LCHF. (Don't worry I am doing this in collaboration with my GP and seeing a cardiologist once a year. Arteries are still nice and open at the age of 51, despite high cholestrol numbers)

 

By way of experimenting I have been on and off the LCHF lifestyle since August 2012. I can state that it has the following benefits for me:

1 My weight dropped into a healthy range, and remains stable while on LCHF.

2 Lipogram is still improving even after 3 Years on LCHF. (I am still taking the same dosage of statins that I took before LCHF) 

3 I don't suffer an afternoon energy drop, and I don't get ravenously hungry as I did on high carbs.

4 No bloating and flatulence on LCHF.

5 Better sleeping patterns. 

 

For fear of highjacking JCZA's thread I will now sign off from this one, after all we have our own thread.   I hope that you will tolerate this last post here, as most of us welcomed positive debate on the  LCHF thread. 

 

Human nutrition is so complex, and I am in no way advocating an 'eat any and as much fat as possible, and no carb approach'. As has been said lots of times: "Not all fats are good, and not all carbs are bad"

 

Anyway JCZA's thread has more to do with racing and carb consuming to be able to perform at your best, so I will be signing of for good. Ciao!

[jcza]

Update, going well but still not drinking beer 

 

http://eatingtotrain.blogspot.com/2015/08/racetime.html

[Spinnekop]

Yeah, perhaps, this may be so, however I also have no reason to doubt my cardiologist's experience or knowledge either. 

 

You see, I have a fairly simple philosophy in life, I am an engineer / businessman with a life history in business and heavy engineering.

 

I am not a doctor, optician, cardiologist or surgeon, I don't try and google myself well when i have a health issue, i go visit one of them and gladly pay them for their expertise and knowledge.

 

Strangely enough, mostly they also reciprocated the philosophy, they will gladly tell me they don't know stainless steel from galvanised plate and can i please assist.

 

Unfortunately Google has created a world of armchair experts on everything from diet to space exploration, and they are becoming constantly more vociferous.  

 

 

I have a bit of an issue with this........it is very oogklap, stick your head in the sand type of thing.

 

I would trust a doc if he cared.  But.....sadly.  No one cares.

Most of my friends going to the docs and getting medicine and antibiotics and what not are MORE sick that what me and my family are not going to docs and relying on good old research.

Be it google or a HUGE variaty of books availible.....

 

My second last last visit to the doctor was 5 years ago when my daughter needed ONE stich on her chin. 

He could not do it (was to impatient with the 3 year old crying).....sticked a elastoplast on it and sent my to hospital.  R1000 later for one stich and all was okay. 

I received an account one month later for R12 for the plaster. 

 

Another example last year......died of pain.  Got resurected.  Went to the doc. (Different one).

Immediate hospital.  Emergency appendix removal.

Scheduled for 5pm.

 

The surgen on duty had a look and was not happy with my liver.....so he organised a sonar. 

The sonar tannie spent a bit time with me.....saying my liver was fine.....but she spent a bit of time with me and my pain..........

Long story short 2 days later a 7mm kidney stone was removed.

 

Every single time I went to any of the docs in Pretoria they got the diagnosis wrong or just gave a course of antibiotics that made me more sick and more poor. 

 

So yah.....I don't visit people that do doctoring for money.  I like to research myself.  Knowledge is power.  And only if my knowledge runs out or I don't have the tools to fix it myself, I go to a kwak.

 

My 2c

[jcza]

From LCHF thread - HBO

 

Hi jcza, please tell us here where you will be posting. Since I'm in the same boat as you, I would like to hear your progress and especially your cholesterol levels.

When you say 5 to 10g/kg is that per day or week? If it is per day that is a sh*t load of carbs per day. If you weigh 75kg, it means between 375 to 750g a day!

Is this for the food or the carb content. In other words as an example, oats for instance is 50g a serving which contains 28.5g of carbs. Are you going to have 15 servings to get to 750g of oats or 26 servings for 750g of carbs?

Tim Noakes said that active, competitive athletes should/ can take between 100 - 200 g of carbs per day.

 

My response:

 

Today so far I've had 400 grams of carbs, still need to have dinner. Went for a long ride. 

Breakfast (Muesli, banana and yoghurt) - 112 grams 

Lunch (Sandwich, Bar & Waffle) - 95 grams

Snacks (Coke, Muffin, Chocolate) - 193 grams

[jcza]

Still happily going along and feeling great! 

 

http://eatingtotrain.blogspot.com/2015/08/train-train-train.html

[jcza]

Getting faster http://eatingtotrain.blogspot.com/2015/08/ashburton-series-rooiberg.html

[TALUS]

I have a bit of an issue with this........it is very oogklap, stick your head in the sand type of thing.

 

I would trust a doc if he cared.  But.....sadly.  No one cares.

Most of my friends going to the docs and getting medicine and antibiotics and what not are MORE sick that what me and my family are not going to docs and relying on good old research.

Be it google or a HUGE variaty of books availible.....

 

My second last last visit to the doctor was 5 years ago when my daughter needed ONE stich on her chin. 

He could not do it (was to impatient with the 3 year old crying).....sticked a elastoplast on it and sent my to hospital.  R1000 later for one stich and all was okay. 

I received an account one month later for R12 for the plaster. 

 

Another example last year......died of pain.  Got resurected.  Went to the doc. (Different one).

Immediate hospital.  Emergency appendix removal.

Scheduled for 5pm.

 

The surgen on duty had a look and was not happy with my liver.....so he organised a sonar. 

The sonar tannie spent a bit time with me.....saying my liver was fine.....but she spent a bit of time with me and my pain..........

Long story short 2 days later a 7mm kidney stone was removed.

 

Every single time I went to any of the docs in Pretoria they got the diagnosis wrong or just gave a course of antibiotics that made me more sick and more poor. 

 

So yah.....I don't visit people that do doctoring for money.  I like to research myself.  Knowledge is power.  And only if my knowledge runs out or I don't have the tools to fix it myself, I go to a kwak.

 

My 2c

A bit harsh. Maybe you should not visit a kwak. Try to be reasonable. When the poo really hits the fan you will need more than a computer. BTW how did Google get the kidney stone out?

[Harryn]

.BTW how did Google get the kidney stone out?

Haha. Brilliant chirp! [emoji3]

[HeadDown]

 

My response:

 

Today so far I've had 400 grams of carbs, still need to have dinner. Went for a long ride. 

Breakfast (Muesli, banana and yoghurt) - 112 grams 

Lunch (Sandwich, Bar & Waffle) - 95 grams

Snacks (Coke, Muffin, Chocolate) - 193 grams

You weren't kidding with this being the "Non LCHF" topic.   

Good luck with your experimenting, hope you find a middle ground that works and you can let us all know how to get there. There seems to be a bit of an art to it...

[jcza]

You weren't kidding with this being the "Non LCHF" topic.   

Good luck with your experimenting, hope you find a middle ground that works and you can let us all know how to get there. There seems to be a bit of an art to it...

 

Bear in mind that it was a big training day. On a non-training day carbs will be around 240grams . 

[TALUS]

Bear in mind that it was a big training day. On a non-training day carbs will be around 240grams .

 

What do you think works for you ito grams of carbs/kg/per hour of solid training?