conversations with a table mountain mugger - groundup article

[GambitF]

It's refreshing to see that a lot of privileged people have some understanding of the challenges being faced in our poverty stricken communities. These are generally due to a huge economic and social inequalities. Show SA could move in the right direction.

 

Those that have the idea that these actions will be eliminated by just eliminating the "scoundrels/gevaar" are blinded by their privilege. 

 

Unfortunately until these social injustices are taken care of by society, unfortunately keep carrying your mace, have insurance on your bike, don't cycle alone, because these occurrences will never stop. A new Norton will always appear.

[eddy]

If Mr Knowitall says that spiritual enlightenment is intellectually bankrupt then it surely must be so.

Good. So you are in agreement then.

 

Let us all move on from this distraction then.

[HeadDown]

Plumstead's rof man!

Snip

 

Put it another way - the difficulties of raising a child who does not get addicted, completes school, works hard, believes in an ordered and just universe are very different if one lives in Plumstead than they are in Lavender Hills. 

 

This isn't saying it's your fault. It's asking you to understand the predicament in which millions of South Africans live.

[Meezo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vv2K0zKNuM

[Patchelicious]

It's refreshing to see that a lot of privileged people have some understanding of the challenges being faced in our poverty stricken communities. These are generally due to a huge economic and social inequalities. Show SA could move in the right direction.

 

Those that have the idea that these actions will be eliminated by just eliminating the "scoundrels/gevaar" are blinded by their privilege. 

 

Unfortunately until these social injustices are taken care of by society, unfortunately keep carrying your mace, have insurance on your bike, don't cycle alone, because these occurrences will never stop. A new Norton will always appear.

I am not so sure about that.

 

That implies that you must take care of this one sole issue first. This should be tackled on multiple fronts simultaneously. Until we scrap the notion that social injustice is the exclusive contributing factor in our criminal problem, it will be seen as a scapegoat by many.

 

There are many things that need to be done to fix our situation, and its not a case of we must do this then that, or this or that. We must do this AND that.

 

Social

Legal

Criminal

Policing

Education

etc etc

 

Should all the tackled simultaneously. Saying we must fix this THEN things can become better makes a very valid reason sound like an excuse.

[Thor Buttox]

I don't totally disagree with you on this one. BUT it is his job to bring the story, to go an piemp his subject is an option he did consider - rock and a hard place.

 

I'd be rightly miffed if I was a HBay resident, trail user, muggee and here is a journalist with all this info (albeit with no actual proof) of someone who claims to have done 40 muggings and nothing is done. Maybe the cops know of Norton already.

I would also be pissed off. Especially if a loved one is attacked. But that is the problem of agency that Mamil, for all his flowery language, was trying to get to. (He can beat me with his dictionary if I am wrong.)

 

There are rather famous studies done psychologically on how humans process things, and the implications of agency and proximity. I don't have the details on me now, but they are called the 'trolley problem' and its variants. (Yes, it is probably overly simplistic, but the problem isn't the issue, it's the results.)

 

Long and short: we all praise journalists who report on Zuma, Mugabe, and other titans of scumbaggery who exist 'out there' , but we think this guy is wrong to report on Norton. Why? Because of agency, and proximity. We are all personally affected by crime in our communities - but who is to prosecute these scum?The police. In the absence of reporting and knowledge thereof, formed by trust, we would have to rely on the police to report. Good luck with that. As in this whole thread, there is a misplaced understanding of cause and effect - more reporting might actually get the police to do their f****** job.

 

Sometimes it is not about the specificity of Norton. It's not even about his choices. It's about the context of his existence in society in general.

[Mamil]

I know - I lived there for a while.

 

Edit - Plumstead that is

[Mamil]

Thor there's some pretty flowery language in there too ...

 

 

I would also be pissed off. Especially if a loved one is attacked. But that is the problem of agency that Mamil, for all his flowery language, was trying to get to. (He can beat me with his dictionary if I am wrong.)

There are rather famous studies done psychologically on how humans process things, and the implications of agency and proximity. I don't have the details on me now, but they are called the 'trolley problem' and its variants. (Yes, it is probably overly simplistic, but the problem isn't the issue, it's the results.)

Long and short: we all praise journalists who report on Zuma, Mugabe, and other titans of scumbaggery who exist 'out there' , but we think this guy is wrong to report on Norton. Why? Because of agency, and proximity. We are all personally affected by crime in our communities - but who is to prosecute these scum?The police. In the absence of reporting and knowledge thereof, formed by trust, we would have to rely on the police to report. Good luck with that. As in this whole thread, there is a misplaced understanding of cause and effect - more reporting might actually get the police to do their f****** job.

Sometimes it is not about the specificity of Norton. It's not even about his choices. It's about the context of his existence in society in general.

[Thor Buttox]

Thor there's some pretty flowery language in there too ...

Oh, fuchsia!

 

Edit: sorry, I meant ****. My spell check is possessed by the devil.

[Mamil]

The journalist I think discharged his ethical obligations well. For one thing the only reason we know about it is that he told us of the conflict that his reporting placed him in and the publisher provided an analysis of the situation.

 

The advantage of taking a so-called moral stance of condemnation and individual responsibility is that it means that we can exclude ourselves from the situation - we don't have to look at our own involvement. If we abbreviate Norton's story to "He's a scumbag, kill him" we don't need to engage further with what's really going on and we are spared the ethcial conundrum.

 

This journalist is asking the question - what's going on? Why are we producing so many Nortons. And as soon as he asks that question he becomes involved and so becomes a part of the problem. By attempting to, through one individual's story,  show the rest of us, where all the Nortons are coming from he enters the frame of the problem and is implicated in it. 

 

I would argue that it is less ethical to ignore Norton's story because insodoing we ensure that when Norton dies, which is highly probable in the next few years given his activities, there will be two more to take his place. 

 

The greater good here seems to me to illustrate to the public the dynamics that fuel the violence of our country.

 

Of course - the other view, that this might mean someone is hurt or killed on the mountain through his not reporting is equally valid. What a terrible dilemma. It reflects the terrible and complex nature of the problem.

 

Much simpler to just shoot him. That way we don't have to sit with all of these conflicting moral imperatives.

 

Finish and Klaar we can tell ourselves. 

[GrahamS2]

If Mr Knowitall says that spiritual enlightenment is intellectually bankrupt then it surely must be so.

Religion and spiritual enlightenment are not mutually exclusive you know.

[sawystertrance]

Some interesting points of view here. Certainly a topic which demands attention and it occurred to me that one of the points folk seem to agree on is that education is required.

Considering that cyclists and hikers appear to be the groups most affected by this, I thought that this may be an opportunity to contribute in some meaningful way.

I don’t know how to do it but would be prepared to put money into some sort of Hub-sponsored education program for Hangberg kids. Aim would be to provide them with a moral framework, education and perspective that they would not be getting from their parents or environment. Whio knows, it could perhaps even grow into something else from there.

Perhaps it would have to involve Social Services and/or schools or other NGOs from Hout Bay.

Does anybody have any concrete suggestions on how to go about it? Anybody here with experience in this kind of thing?

[Justinvdyk]

This is not a case where it was 

 

Yes, but he seems to be very much a product of dire circumstances that continue to produce a number of "Nortons" rather than a one-off bad apple.

 

Scary story...

How is this "a product of a dire circumstances"? "...he was a talented soccer player, representing Cape Town Spurs and FC Fortune at junior level. He attended trials for Ajax Cape town when the club formed in 1999, and made the squad, but started smoking tik soon afterwards..." He made a choice to end his career. In his current circumstances this is probably his only choice, but that is due to choices that he made that lead to him being a convicted criminal and messed up from drugs. 

[The expat cyclist]

The journo reported on the scumbag and society wants to know wtf is the journo doing about it...

Had the journo reported on the victims, society would have most probably wanted to know what is the police/government/society doing about it.

[Shebeen]

welcome to the Hub MAMIL.....I can't believe that name wasn't taken already!

[Phatman]

The origin of crime is Satan the devil, the evil in man.

Um... Are you a Jehovah's Witness???