Do eBikes belong on the mountain?

[Odinson]

Good points,Thank you.

 

I think we should listen to those who are already dealing with an increase in pedal assisted bicycles.

 

What is the current thinking on your local trails when it comes to the inclusion of eBikes?

 

E-MTBs (and e-bikes) are widely accepted in Europe. It is the largest market currently. I competed in an enduro race over the weekend and you were welcome to race in the e-bike class.

 

I've yet to hear of any trail access issues for e-MTBs.

 

To give some perspective as to how huge e-bikes are becoming:

 

 

In terms of numbers, in terms of percentage of your sales, in what year did you start with e-bikes and what has the growth been for you guys?

We started with e-bikes in 2013, if I remember right, and then it represented maybe 5% of the total turnover. Today, e-bikes represents roughly 10% of our sales, but it represents more turnover because an e-bike has a higher value. I will say in regards to turnover, it represents maybe 15 to 20%

 

Source: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/from-the-top-scotts-pascal-ducrot.html

 

That's crazy growth for Scott Sports alone. Cube is also selling shedloads of their e-bikes.

[Hairy]

Ok cool, so your primary reason is a more principled and emotive one. (Doesnt mean its wrong), I "feel" the same way as you do sometimes... my old man and I argue about it the whole time Doesn't mean either of us is wrong. He thinks its ok for him to one, I say why the hell does he want to when he is more than capable of beating 80% of the field on his Epic anyways.... That discussion is not for here. So I am actually more in your boat here.

 

However, it is slightly more difficult to get people to understand, let alone agree with "principled" based views. How I "feel" about eBike should have no bearing on other peoples choices. HOWEVER if there re valid and real issues, safety etc, then we need to discuss those.

 

On the access, I do think that sooner or later. "Pedal Power Only" or even "No eBikes" signs will pop up. Last thing that I want to see is some dude on some super modified eBike roosting it around  corner like Bubba Stewart, full opposite lock only to plow into a family on a chilled pedal around the Green Route of their local MTB track.

 

http://www.ftemoto.com/MX/HTwallpaper/images/A15F6938.jpg

 

I suppose its the prerogative of the land owner, or clubs to make this decision. Point I am making is that these decisions points are coming, we might as well think about how to handle them now already. 

Good Post Patch

[Hairy]

E-MTBs (and e-bikes) are widely accepted in Europe. It is the largest market currently. I competed in an enduro race over the weekend and you were welcome to race in the e-bike class.

 

I've yet to hear of any trail access issues for e-MTBs.

 

To give some perspective as to how huge e-bikes are becoming:

 

 

Source: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/from-the-top-scotts-pascal-ducrot.html

 

That's crazy growth for Scott Sports alone. Cube is also selling shedloads of their e-bikes.

stating good sales percentages is not a good enough motivation to allow a motorised bicycle on a trail designed around non motorised bicycles, and where one will encounter non motorised cyclists.

 

I understand a regulated e-bike is not such a "big thing" to be concerned about.....but we also know human nature, and a good many bikes will be de regulated.

[carbon29er]

stating good sales percentages is not a good enough motivation to allow a motorised bicycle on a trail designed around non motorised bicycles, and where one will encounter non motorised cyclists.

 

I understand a regulated e-bike is not such a "big thing" to be concerned about.....but we also know human nature, and a good many bikes will be de regulated.

In fact it's almost as bad as using strava KOMs as a reason.

 

Access is the issue. Now or soon. But it is coming. Particularly on public land. And we all know how SA Parks just LOVES having mountain bikes in their parks.

[SwissVan]

Good points,Thank you.

 

I think we should listen to those who are already dealing with an increase in pedal assisted bicycles.

 

What is the current thinking on your local trails when it comes to the inclusion of eBikes?

I have not heard of any resistance to ebikes on trails, and cannot recall seeing any on dedicated mtb trails in my area (last time I rode on a trail was last summer at least 6 months ago).

This will change as every bike shop is now selling ebikes of which half are mtb ... and there are alot of bike shops.... I have at least 8 within easy walking distance from home.

 

Most of the ones I see are riding on dedicated cycling routes (tar or jeep track) or cruising around town used by people commuting to work etc... the one I nearly collided with while out running is a regular I see who is commuting daily and clearly quite fit and capable. He rides at an "impressive" speed on a public commuting (walking, jogging, horse riding, roller blading, dog walking) type path, he must have good powers of anticipation ???? But one day is one day he will come short

 

In a country where so many people cycle bike accidents are fairly common, but going on reports in the local press there is definetly a belief that ebikes have had a negative (as in increased) influence.

[GrahamS2]

In fact it's almost as bad as using strava KOMs as a reason.

 

Access is the issue. Now or soon. But it is coming. Particularly on public land. And we all know how SA Parks just LOVES having mountain bikes in their parks.

I don't see how access for pedal assist e-bikes is an issue? It's the equivalent of saying that pro riders should also have restricted access because their speed differential over normal riders is too high. And that's exactly what riding with someone on a pedal assist e-bike is like - just like riding with a faster, fitter rider.

Edited March 7, 2017 by GrahamS2

[Odinson]

stating good sales percentages is not a good enough motivation to allow a motorised bicycle on a trail designed around non motorised bicycles, and where one will encounter non motorised cyclists.

 

I understand a regulated e-bike is not such a "big thing" to be concerned about.....but we also know human nature, and a good many bikes will be de regulated.

 

Selective qouting, Hairy.

 

I've been in Europe for close on two years and have yet to to encounter resistance to regulated e-MTBs. Read here:

 

 

This brings us onto the most important word when we talk about e-bikes - "motorised." Legally e-bikes are considered motorised and globally the legal situation is convoluted. In fact, in most of the United States they are grouped in with motorbikes or mopeds by law. A quick look at a state-by-state guide shows differing legislation and restrictions in each state, different power outputs, different power requirements, license requirements and land access issues. Here in Europe it a bit less complicated, thanks to the EU. There are two types of e-bikes - there are electric pedal-assisted cycles (they have been given the snappy acronym of EPACs by European lawmakers), which are strictly regulated, and then there is everything else which is pretty much covered in my previous paragraph. In fact, anything outside the EPAC regulations is on dodgy ground, much of the time banned from trails for being motorised, but also banned from the roads for being unroadworthy. So from here on in, when we talk of e-bikes, we are talking about these EPACs. EU legislation means they have their power limited to 250W, they are restricted to 25km/h and the motor only functions when you pedal. So long as they comply to these rules, here in Europe they are considered mountain bikes by law and have access to everything mountain bikes have access to.

 

GrahamS2 hit the nail on the head. Riding an e-MTB is the equivalent of being a stronger, fitter rider. That's all.

Edited March 7, 2017 by ØÐINSȪƝ

[Hairy]

I don't see how access for pedal assist e-bikes is an issue? It's the equivalent of saying that pro riders should also have restricted access because their speed differential over normal riders is too high. And that's exactly what riding with someone on a pedal assist e-bike is like - just like riding with a faster, fitter rider.

people like quoting the output of pro riders, but pro riders have the TITS to know how to manage that power (No wheelspin, etc) and then in theory also have the ability, thanks to TITS to control the bike back down the trail again.

 

Mr/Mrs/Miss Joe/Jolene Soap, new to the sport and lacking bicycle handling ability would not have that skill or TITS.

 

Are we are veering off topic here?

[Odinson]

people like quoting the output of pro riders, but pro riders have the TITS to know how to manage that power (No wheelspin, etc) and then in theory also have the ability, thanks to TITS to control the bike back down the trail again.

 

Mr/Mrs/Miss Joe/Jolene Soap, new to the sport and lacking bicycle handling ability would not have that skill or TITS.

 

Are we are veering off topic here?

 

So many ass-umptions in your post.

[Hairy]

So many ass-umptions in your post.

are you ass-suming this .... just applying logic here.

['Dale]

I've lost one of my handful of trail KOMs because of these energy bikes, earned over 6 mins at 10% gradient under the scorching African sun.

Cried myself to sleep for days ????

 

No. They're not welcome. ????????

Edited March 7, 2017 by 'Dale

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

people like quoting the output of pro riders, but pro riders have the TITS to know how to manage that power (No wheelspin, etc) and then in theory also have the ability, thanks to TITS to control the bike back down the trail again.

 

Mr/Mrs/Miss Joe/Jolene Soap, new to the sport and lacking bicycle handling ability would not have that skill or TITS.

 

Are we are veering off topic here?

You're not talking e-bikes. You're talking electric motos. Different thing entirely. 

 

E-MTB's do NOT have the ability to automatically make someone faster on the way down. They DO allow people to get to the top a little faster and fresher. 

 

You're conflating terms here, Hairy... We're all in agreement that if they do not have restrictions on power, do not require pedalling input to initiate the motor and / or have a throttle control, that they do NOT satify the criteria to be categorised as an e-bike. 

 

But that's not the argument here. We're talking about PROPER e-bikes. Not those behemoths that you posted earlier. Those have way too much power and WILL be able to wheelspin on the trails. But - the big thing is that they will not automagically imbue the rider with technical skills - if they're slow on the way down on a normal MTB, they'll be slow on the way down on one of those things. They'll still skrik for drops, gaps, off camber corners and many other trail features. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Myles Mayhew

[carbon29er]

I don't see how access for pedal assist e-bikes is an issue? It's the equivalent of saying that pro riders should also have restricted access because their speed differential over normal riders is too high. And that's exactly what riding with someone on a pedal assist e-bike is like - just like riding with a faster, fitter rider.

Time will tell.

 

But while you are about it why not just go ride a motorbike is SAN Parks areas. It is not different to a bicycle with a motor. Or a SUV or bakkie for that matter. So much easier to get to the mast except for all those pesky cyclists.

 

It's hard to fathom how the connection is not made to the MOTOR being a problem.  We are talking about riding motorised bikes in areas that until last September in the Cape that we were not allowed to ride BICYCLES in.

 

Yes E-Bikes are great. Go ride on the road with them if you want to pretend cycle. But don't risk others enjoyment of the mountain because of your own selfishness because you are too lazy to pedal.

[FCH]

Fair question; depends if you're a figurative or literal person....

More importantly, what is a judgement prick?

[carbon29er]

You're not talking e-bikes. You're talking electric motos. Different thing entirely. 

 

E-MTB's do NOT have the ability to automatically make someone faster on the way down. They DO allow people to get to the top a little faster and fresher. 

 

You're conflating terms here, Hairy... We're all in agreement that if they do not have restrictions on power, do not require pedalling input to initiate the motor and / or have a throttle control, that they do NOT satify the criteria to be categorised as an e-bike. 

And who is qualified to test that?

 

How many moan about rogue riders? Yet they see motorized bikes as OK on the trails. I cannot fathom this thinking. As hard as I try I just cannot see how they are ok in any natural environment.

[Hairy]

You're not talking e-bikes. You're talking electric motos. Different thing entirely. 

 

E-MTB's do NOT have the ability to automatically make someone faster on the way down. They DO allow people to get to the top a little faster and fresher. 

 

You're conflating terms here, Hairy... We're all in agreement that if they do not have restrictions on power, do not require pedalling input to initiate the motor and / or have a throttle control, that they do NOT satify the criteria to be categorised as an e-bike. 

A newbie now has the ability to take on a tough climb .... let's use that mother of a climb at the end to reach the mast at Conters, and then access the Black Route. That person is in a world of difficulty here RE skill vs trail conditions. Just an example.

 

E-Bikes are motorbike, no argument of it being restricted to 25km and being pedal assist will change my views on this. It is no longer a human only powered means of transport. Now the decision has to be made as to whether this form of transport is to be allowed on the MTB trails. Personally I have mixed feelings, but I am still leaning to a No Access mindset.

 

As I have noted before, over riding the regulated E-Bikes is a very simple process, and not one that anybody will be able to visually assess or control at the entry point to a trail. 

 

To be clear, there is NOT a "we're all in agreement" consensus RE E-Bikes on the trails even if they do have the 25km control, etc in place. Even more so if these controls are de regulated.