K2C & e-bikes

[Eldron]

You make a good point. At the end of the day you can choose not to participate in events where e-bikes are allowed if that's your stance and vice versa. I just hope that there will still be events that do not allow it for those who want that option...

Provincial and nationals will always be ebikes free of course but I for one would like to be able to race fairly against my peers at a number of races rather than race unfairly against Eskom.

[Eugene Oppelt]

I am rubber you are glue - everything bounces off me and sticks to you.

 

Roses are red, violets are blue, ebikes are not bicycles and don't belong in races. Boohoo.

 

Damn. I really thought that would make me feel better.

 

Eldron, whatever is in your morning cereal and/or coffee.

It's good stuff.

How your mind works.   

[gogo@]

I'm involved with organizing an MTB event.  We had 4 people enter this year intending to ride e-bikes BUT we are sanctioned by CSA so this raised a couple of issues. 1) do we continue with CSA sanctioning? 2) do we want e-bikes on our course?

We tried very hard to accommodate the e-bikes but in the end could not. CSA wouldn't even let them start 1hour behind everyone else for fear they would catch up and interfere with the race.  remember, it's NOT JUST who wins the race overall, there are also category prizes up for grabs.  Our course is point-to-point and fast... So even IF we could start a separate group an hour behind everyone else, this has massive implications for start procedures as race organizers and time-keepers leave immediately after the start to get to the finish.

Yes, we could do something about that, but who is going to do it? And pay costs? We struggle like hell to get volunteers on the day, even from the charities we support so manpower is stretched thin.

It could be done, but, then, I spoke to lots of people who did the event plus people involved in running it and the general consensus was that at this stage it really is not an option. Until the numbers are there (or getting there), we are not going to be able to cater for e-bikes. CSA wants them on a completely separate course, and we can't do that either.  If there were enough people wanting to ride e-bikes, we would consider ditching CSA (that's another debate because they do play a role).

So, we will respond if the need grows.

Overall, people riding the event that I spoke to are not keen on having e-bikes around.  Most of the reasons have already been mentioned here and were supported by experience. The skills level is definitely an issue - not in theory, in practice - as is interfering with race tactics THROUGHOUT the bunches.

I've ridden an e-bike and I'm a back-of-the-pack MTB rider.

 

So why wouldn't I want e-bikes at events like K2C? Besides the issues above, I cannot imagine the same vibe at the back of the race with e-bikes around. Instead of suffering, guys will give into temptation and take a tow... etc.  What's the reason I went back to do my second K2C? Because I've never suffered as much as I did on the first one.  The only reason I finished the first was so that I didn't have to go back!! Yet, I did, trained more, etc, and had an absolute blast.  I also did something insane, given my "abilities": I entered Trans Baviaans, using the logic that if I suffered that much at K2C, I could ride a bit further... (!) which did happen.

Without the challenge that events like K2C offer, would that have been the case?  I think not.  It's not about the race, it's about taking on the challenge, finding out who you really are (despite what everyone might think/say, including yourself).

E-bikes, after my experience earlier this year, smell of money, privilege and entitlement (there is more to the story, I'm not going into it) which is a pity because, yes, I can see myself doing the e-bike thing in time, but not for the same reasons as entering something like K2C, so I am not going to expect to be accommodated like that.

E-bike events will happen and grow.  That is good.  But they are not the same as participating in an MTB marathon.

My personal 2c, for consideration by anyone thinking about implications.  Please, I'm not saying I'm right either.  But do get some perspective(s) on the issue instead of calling everyone "haters".

[eddy]

I have an entry for the Coronation DC in November and am putting together a competitive team.

 

We have six strong riders who plan to race but would like to invite six e-bike riders to join us for the experience.

 

No need to finish, just ride as hard as your batteries allow for as long as possible and because you won't be able to get to the end with the rest of us, we will allow you guys to ride in front until you can no longer hang in.  

[Rigardt@Scott]

I'm involved with organizing an MTB event...

 

Great to hear the point of view of someone involved in organising events. That post seems to be spot on with the concerns most people have!

[Eldron]

Eldron, whatever is in your morning cereal and/or coffee.

It's good stuff.

How your mind works.   

 

I figure if you're going scrape the barrel of human intellect why stop there? Smash your way through the barrel and dig into to soft rotting earth below!

[Patchelicious]

I have an entry for the Coronation DC in November and am putting together a competitive team.

 

We have six strong riders who plan to race but would like to invite six e-bike riders to join us for the experience.

 

No need to finish, just ride as hard as your batteries allow for as long as possible and because you won't be able to get to the end with the rest of us, we will allow you guys to ride in front until you can no longer hang in.

And don’t you dare infringe on their constitutional right and discriminate against them by saying that they are not allowed participate.

[DieselnDust]

Provincial and nationals will always be ebikes free of course but I for one would like to be able to race fairly against my peers at a number of races rather than race unfairly against Eskom.

 

 

Agreed.

If you're racing you're in a CSA sanctioned event right? If not CSA sanctioned then its a Fun Ride? Isn't this how CSA and PPA get to live together?

If event is CSA sanctioned then I assume that it is run under UCI rules.

If its a Fun Ride then there's the option of using UCI rules and adding or creating special rules for other participants.

 

SO if racing under CSA rules then e-bikes are not even a discussion point. For fun rides or non sanctioned events its the event organizers discretion. However its far easier to challenge a fun event organizers discretion than it is to challenge the CSA/UCI/OC.

 

In terms of racing fairly against other able bodied competitors I see that this is comprehensively covered under the CSA sanction of the event.

 

for anything else its not a race, maybe a "race", or its a fun event in aid of charity or some other endeavor. This area is open to discuss.

 

I saw lots of e-bikes at the CTCT this year yet Rules of entry state that the bike has to be human powered. I believe the organisers only allow them into the Open Seeded categories. 

 

K2C and other events would do themselves a favour to look into how they can accommodate an e-bike category for:

 

Class 1

max wattage around 700-750W

Nominal Wattage -200W -250W

550W.hr min rating.

Starting in the last group of the day.

 

550W.hr drive is going to be challenged to make the range with all those climbs so the speed the rider can achieve is going to be limited but battery W.hr output rather than outright performance

[Eldron]

Agreed.

If you're racing you're in a CSA sanctioned event right? If not CSA sanctioned then its a Fun Ride? Isn't this how CSA and PPA get to live together?

If event is CSA sanctioned then I assume that it is run under UCI rules.

If its a Fun Ride then there's the option of using UCI rules and adding or creating special rules for other participants.

 

SO if racing under CSA rules then e-bikes are not even a discussion point. For fun rides or non sanctioned events its the event organizers discretion. However its far easier to challenge a fun event organizers discretion than it is to challenge the CSA/UCI/OC.

 

In terms of racing fairly against other able bodied competitors I see that this is comprehensively covered under the CSA sanction of the event.

 

for anything else its not a race, maybe a "race", or its a fun event in aid of charity or some other endeavor. This area is open to discuss.

 

I saw lots of e-bikes at the CTCT this year yet Rules of entry state that the bike has to be human powered. I believe the organisers only allow them into the Open Seeded categories.

 

K2C and other events would do themselves a favour to look into how they can accommodate an e-bike category for:

 

Class 1

max wattage around 700-750W

Nominal Wattage -200W -250W

550W.hr min rating.

Starting in the last group of the day.

 

550W.hr drive is going to be challenged to make the range with all those climbs so the speed the rider can achieve is going to be limited but battery W.hr output rather than outright performance

Good call. I'm all for "rides" allowing ebikes but races not.

 

My definition of race is probably a bit stricter than yours though. I figure if it is timed it is a race. No timing then it isn't a race.

 

I still don't understand why people would want to use motors in a human race though (real medical reasons aside if course). Is it laziness? Do they just want to be part of the action without having to do all the training? Do they want to beat their mates and don't care about morality? Or do they just figure there is an easier option available so they take it?

 

I honestly can't think of a valid reason for wanting to race your ebike if you're a healthy person.

[Shebeen]

 

I'm involved with organizing an MTB event. We had 4 people enter this year intending to ride e-bikes BUT we are sanctioned by CSA so this raised a couple of issues. 1) do we continue with CSA sanctioning? 2) do we want e-bikes on our course?

We tried very hard to accommodate the e-bikes but in the end could not. CSA wouldn't even let them start 1hour behind everyone else for fear they would catch up and interfere with the race. remember, it's NOT JUST who wins the race overall, there are also category prizes up for grabs. Our course is point-to-point and fast... So even IF we could start a separate group an hour behind everyone else, this has massive implications for start procedures as race organizers and time-keepers leave immediately after the start to get to the finish.

Yes, we could do something about that, but who is going to do it? And pay costs? We struggle like hell to get volunteers on the day, even from the charities we support so manpower is stretched thin.

It could be done, but, then, I spoke to lots of people who did the event plus people involved in running it and the general consensus was that at this stage it really is not an option. Until the numbers are there (or getting there), we are not going to be able to cater for e-bikes. CSA wants them on a completely separate course, and we can't do that either. If there were enough people wanting to ride e-bikes, we would consider ditching CSA (that's another debate because they do play a role).

So, we will respond if the need grows.

Overall, people riding the event that I spoke to are not keen on having e-bikes around. Most of the reasons have already been mentioned here and were supported by experience. The skills level is definitely an issue - not in theory, in practice - as is interfering with race tactics THROUGHOUT the bunches.

I've ridden an e-bike and I'm a back-of-the-pack MTB rider.

 

So why wouldn't I want e-bikes at events like K2C? Besides the issues above, I cannot imagine the same vibe at the back of the race with e-bikes around. Instead of suffering, guys will give into temptation and take a tow... etc. What's the reason I went back to do my second K2C? Because I've never suffered as much as I did on the first one. The only reason I finished the first was so that I didn't have to go back!! Yet, I did, trained more, etc, and had an absolute blast. I also did something insane, given my "abilities": I entered Trans Baviaans, using the logic that if I suffered that much at K2C, I could ride a bit further... (!) which did happen.

Without the challenge that events like K2C offer, would that have been the case? I think not. It's not about the race, it's about taking on the challenge, finding out who you really are (despite what everyone might think/say, including yourself).

E-bikes, after my experience earlier this year, smell of money, privilege and entitlement (there is more to the story, I'm not going into it) which is a pity because, yes, I can see myself doing the e-bike thing in time, but not for the same reasons as entering something like K2C, so I am not going to expect to be accommodated like that.

E-bike events will happen and grow. That is good. But they are not the same as participating in an MTB marathon.

My personal 2c, for consideration by anyone thinking about implications. Please, I'm not saying I'm right either. But do get some perspective(s) on the issue instead of calling everyone "haters".

Thanks for the perspective from your side of the start chute. It's not a black and white issue as many seem to see it, but got lots of grey in-between. As with most things, market forces will really decide and race organisers will make the call.

 

Quite interesting that with the e-bike question, Dr evil classic says go for it, K2c says not this time. Both races organised in conjunction with each other.

[DieselnDust]

Good call. I'm all for "rides" allowing ebikes but races not.

 

My definition of race is probably a bit stricter than yours though. I figure if it is timed it is a race. No timing then it isn't a race.

 

I still don't understand why people would want to use motors in a human race though (real medical reasons aside if course). Is it laziness? Do they just want to be part of the action without having to do all the training? Do they want to beat their mates and don't care about morality? Or do they just figure there is an easier option available so they take it?

 

I honestly can't think of a valid reason for wanting to race your ebike if you're a healthy person.

 

 

I hear you. To me race is a competition and there's prizes of monetary value up for grabs. Fun rides could be timed or not but there there's only ego, bragging rights and Strava KOM's /segment leader rights up for grabs. That's how I distinguish between the two. Not right or wrong, just the way I see it.

I have no desire to race an e-bike.

I also don't think anyone asking for e-bikes is wanting to race them. OP wants to enjoy and experience the vibe of riding along with others since his physical condition doesn't allow that from a normal push bike.

 

I also feel that the abilities of Class 1 E-bikes are being way over stated. Range is calculated for a flat smooth road and an average weight rider aboard the bike. Just looking at the nominal output and  W.hrs of the bikes available they all appear to be around 250W nominal and 600W.hr which isn't going to get a 80kg rider to the finishline at 250W. The bike would have to be more conservative in its output. and assuming the riders contribution remains failry low at say 70W Normalised Power, and the bike in conservation mode (to get the range) at roughly 120W

you're looking at 190W for the ride which is at best mid field

[gogo@]

... As with most things, market forces will really decide and race organisers will make the call.

 

Quite interesting that with the e-bike question, Dr evil classic says go for it, K2c says not this time. Both races organised in conjunction with each other.

Some events are going to lend themselves towards e-bikes more favorably than others.

Logistics and numbers are the obvious determinants. Would be curious to hear the thinking around these two.

[Skubarra]

Quite interesting that with the e-bike question, Dr evil classic says go for it, K2c says not this time. Both races organised in conjunction with each other.

 

K2C is sold out months in advance, Dr Evil is never fully subscribed afaik

 

This probably answer your question on why K2C is not interested in being the pioneers in integrating ebikes and normal bikes on the same event.

[Goodbadugly]

[Whatsup!]

I stubbed my toe last week so I think they should stop discriminating against mountain bikes and e-bikes at Iron Man.  It is just not right that an event can stipulate the type of bicycle that can be used. 

While I am at at, I think we need to re-look at the wet suits allowed and I am sure roller blades are the same as running shoes. 

 

Is it Friday yet !

[Eldron]

I hear you. To me race is a competition and there's prizes of monetary value up for grabs. Fun rides could be timed or not but there there's only ego, bragging rights and Strava KOM's /segment leader rights up for grabs. That's how I distinguish between the two. Not right or wrong, just the way I see it.

I have no desire to race an e-bike.

I also don't think anyone asking for e-bikes is wanting to race them. OP wants to enjoy and experience the vibe of riding along with others since his physical condition doesn't allow that from a normal push bike.

 

I also feel that the abilities of Class 1 E-bikes are being way over stated. Range is calculated for a flat smooth road and an average weight rider aboard the bike. Just looking at the nominal output and  W.hrs of the bikes available they all appear to be around 250W nominal and 600W.hr which isn't going to get a 80kg rider to the finishline at 250W. The bike would have to be more conservative in its output. and assuming the riders contribution remains failry low at say 70W Normalised Power, and the bike in conservation mode (to get the range) at roughly 120W

you're looking at 190W for the ride which is at best mid field

 

A wise man once said "the first bicycle race happened when the second bicycle was built" and that is kinda how I see it. Racing humans versus electricity would destroy the spirit of the race in my opinion. Instead of a bunch of people with a common goal of finishing the race under their own steam and suffering like dogs to make the cut it becomes a motorised farce with people of random ability smashing other people of random ability.

 

Perhaps that is the way the world is going but I don't like it. I'm a little old school where we understood the challenge, took it on, prepared for it and suffered for our results. Having a machine do half the work kinda defeats the point of doing it in the first place. It's a bit like giving out participation medals to everyone. It makes the event less special - if the Epic allowed ebikes then they might as well sell Epic medals for R15 a pop.

 

If I had my way ebikes would remain separated from human bikes in the same way that various disciplines of cycling are separated. I see mtbs and gravel bikes are now starting to compete directly but I'm still happy that it's human versus human.

 

I honestly see no difference between chemical doping, motordoping, taking a short cut, starting 20 mins before your allotted start time, skipping the last lap or the infamous "enter the long race but take the short race turn off then claim the time and result for the long race".

 

Perhaps it's the fact that ebikes are sold in stores which gives tacit approval of their use - I'm guessing if EPO was freely available with a Spesh/Santa Cruz/Niner/Pinarello lable on it that people would want to use it for racing - or if you could buy a top end "skip a lap" card at a concept store that people would gobble them up and show them to race officials hoping to do only 80% of the course but still get a 100% time.

 

If the ebike is doing more work that you are (like in your example) then all hope is lost in my opinion - even half has some kind of "at least I did more work than the machine" pathetic  excuse.

 

Well say - that rant went off in random directions :-)