The Veganism Thread

[Odinson]

Veganism.

 

So, let’s start off with what that actually means. There’s no universal definition, but the one provided by The Vegan Society offers a good perspective:

 

“A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.”

 

The next question would be as to why someone should adopt this lifestyle and truthfully, there is no universal answer to that. It’s for every person to decide for themselves why they want to follow this path. However, the motivations can be broadly grouped into the following three categories:

 

1. Ethics:

Many people are of the opinion that there is no moral justification for us to exploit and kill animals if there is no extenuating circumstances or reasons for us to do so. If we can both live and thrive off of a plant-based diet, what moral justification is there then for us to harm animals?

 

2. Environmental concerns:

An overwhelming balance of evidence supports the conclusion that animal agriculture is one of the main drivers of climate change and environmental destruction and/or degradation.

 

3. Health:

There is an overwhelming body of good evidence that a whole food plant-rich diet or plant-based diet is both health promoting and preventative in regards to disease, especially many of the main killers, such as heart disease, stroke and certain types of cancer.

 

Those are just some of the reasons that people may choose to adopt this lifestyle. Personally, I transitioned initially based on environmental concerns. Concern for the animals and my health came much later.

 

Now, does veganism require you to become a ‘YouTube activist’, chain yourself to trees in a rainforest, save pigs from a slaughterhouse or only wear tie-dye shirts? Absolutely not. You can be fully disinterested in any type of activism or direct action, but at least decide to not support people and industries that exploit animals and contribute to environmental destruction. It’s that simple.

 

I’ll dive into the different topics in detail as I have the time. If anyone would be interested, I’d also share some personal anecdotes, but that’s only n=1, so take it as such.  

 

Here are some interesting videos for those who have some time:

 

https://youtu.be/Z3u7hXpOm58

 

https://youtu.be/YnQb58BoBQw

 

I welcome debate and contrarian views. I’m not fazed by trolling, but it does detract from the discussion. If it’ll make you feel better, throw out a barb, but know that I’ve heard and seen it all before.

 

[GrahamS2]

3. Health:

There is an overwhelming body of good evidence that a whole food plant-rich diet or plant-based diet is both health promoting and preventative in regards to disease, especially many of the main killers, such as heart disease, stroke and certain types of cancer.

 

Cool thread. Could you post links to some studies where other factors have been controlled for? Not outright disagreeing with you, but there's a very blurred area when it comes to long term dietary control studies. Most of the older heart association research data has shown to be inaccurate and thus obsolete, and dietary cholesterol is turning out to not be the killer it was always labelled as.

 

Another interesting association I recently read about is the one between religion and veganism, the theory being that one is often substituted for the other. Both of the vegans in my direct circle of friends came from strong religious backgrounds, and are now, what I'd call, fanatical vegans. So I wonder if there's any merit to that? Apologies for mentioning vegan and religion in the same sentence. This thread may implode.

Edited November 27, 2018 by GrahamS2

[Odinson]

Cool thread. Could you post links to some studies where other factors have been controlled for? Not outright disagreeing with you, but there's a very blurred area when it comes to long term dietary control studies. Most of the older heart association research data has shown to be inaccurate and thus obsolete, and dietary cholesterol is turning out to not be the killer it was always labelled as.

 

Another interesting association I recently read about is the one between religion and veganism, the theory being that one is often substituted for the other. Both of the vegans in my direct circle of friends came from strong religious backgrounds, and are now, what I'd call, fanatical vegans. So I wonder if there's any merit to that? Apologies for mentioning vegan and religion in the same sentence. This thread may implode.

 

I'll post some studies in due course. There's a lot of well designed studies out there. I really enjoy controlled feeding trials (which are still quite exceptional), as they can provide very valuable data, as you have strict adherence and lower attrition. Regarding dietary cholesterol, here is some good info from Dr. Michelle McMacken: 

 

 

 

MYTH #1: “We need to eat cholesterol.” Nope. Cholesterol has important functions in our bodies, but we are capable of making all the cholesterol we need, even if we consume a zero-cholesterol diet. Virtually every human tissue is capable of making cholesterol, especially the liver, intestine, adrenal glands, & reproductive organs.

 

MYTH #2: “The cholesterol we eat doesn’t matter.” Actually, cholesterol in food does raise blood cholesterol, though not as predictably as do saturated & trans fats. The point may be moot, as most foods that contain cholesterol also contain saturated fats. The effect that dietary cholesterol has on your blood cholesterol depends in part on the rest of your diet: if your diet is already high in saturated fats and cholesterol, adding more cholesterol won’t have as much of an effect. But if your diet is overall healthy, more dietary cholesterol will cause a greater rise in your blood cholesterol. Also, independent of blood cholesterol levels, high-cholesterol foods such as eggs have been shown to promote LDL oxidation and increase cardiovascular risk.

 

MYTH #3: “Raising your HDL (‘good’) cholesterol protects against cardiovascular disease.” Not necessarily! Research shows that the FUNCTION of your HDL particles is probably more important for lowering cardiovascular risk than the HDL level reported on your blood test results. In its normal state, HDL is an anti-inflammatory, antioxidant particle that is responsible for cholesterol efflux- the removal of excess cholesterol from our tissues, especially the blood vessels. But HDL can become dysfunctional and pro-inflammatory in situations of oxidative (cellular) stress. For example, saturated fats, which are known to raise HDL, also have been shown to render HDL more inflammatory and atherogenic. So you shouldn’t celebrate a rise in your HDL cholesterol if you got there simply by eating more saturated fats.

 

THE BOTTOM LINE? Eating a diet rich in plant foods, and low in added sugars, animal foods, & ultraprocessed foods, is a great way to optimize your cholesterol panel & dramatically reduce your cardiovascular risk.

 

Regarding the veganism/religion association, I can't say that I've heard that before and the association sounds tenuous at best. I doubt there is any real evidence to support that association. I'd think the inverse would be true. From my experience, atheism/agnosticism is very prevalent among vegans. However, the vegan/plant-based community is very diverse and adopting a vegan lifestyle does not necessitate it to be at the expense of religion, culture, etc. 

 

I'm curious, why do you call these folks "fanatical". 

[GrahamS2]

I'm curious, why do you call these folks "fanatical". 

Mostly because they are. I know many people who choose not to eat a particular food type, and other than asking them you wouldn't really know about it. And I only regularly see 2 vegans, so my experiences are based on a limited sample, but they both routinely bring up their dietary choice as being the 'right' way and berate meat eaters. I've had similar experiences with other vegans at social functions, so I'm not sure if this high level of enthusiasm is a thing or if I've just been unlucky. It gets tiring but doesn't particularly bother me. I eat meat and always will, and if someone chooses not to (for whatever reason) then that's their choice. 

 

The science behind it all is what fascinates me as dietary science is really in it's infancy when it comes to proper studies. Can humans genuinely survive on plant matter (without any supplements)? 

[Odinson]

Mostly because they are. I know many people who choose not to eat a particular food type, and other than asking them you wouldn't really know about it. And I only regularly see 2 vegans, so my experiences are based on a limited sample, but they both routinely bring up their dietary choice as being the 'right' way and berate meat eaters. I've had similar experiences with other vegans at social functions, so I'm not sure if this high level of enthusiasm is a thing or if I've just been unlucky. It gets tiring but doesn't particularly bother me. I eat meat and always will, and if someone chooses not to (for whatever reason) then that's their choice. 

 

The science behind it all is what fascinates me as dietary science is really in it's infancy when it comes to proper studies. Can humans genuinely survive on plant matter (without any supplements)? 

 

Head on over back to the 'Awesome' thread and have a look at some of the responses to my posts. Would someone posting 'mmm, ek gaan vanaand lekker braai' in response to a photo of a rescued goat/sheep not be seen as extreme and fanatical from a vegan or vegetarian's point of view? It's all a matter of perspective. 

 

I would have to disagree with you on the 'infancy' aspect. The China–Cornell–Oxford Project was already published in the 80's, which concluded that (Chinese) counties with a high consumption of animal-based foods in 1983–84 were more likely to have had higher death rates from "Western" diseases as of 1973–75, while the opposite was true for counties that ate more plant-based foods. However, the research is now more mainstream and more widely accepted, than previously. Just take the Physicians' Committee for Responsible Medicine, who are working on evidence based nutrition to prevent, treat and reverse chronic illnesses. 

[Cheese]

I'll post some studies in due course. There's a lot of well designed studies out there. I really enjoy controlled feeding trials (which are still quite exceptional), as they can provide very valuable data, as you have strict adherence and lower attrition. Regarding dietary cholesterol, here is some good info from Dr. Michelle McMacken: 

 

 

Regarding the veganism/religion association, I can't say that I've heard that before and the association sounds tenuous at best. I doubt there is any real evidence to support that association. I'd think the inverse would be true. From my experience, atheism/agnosticism is very prevalent among vegans. However, the vegan/plant-based community is very diverse and adopting a vegan lifestyle does not necessitate it to be at the expense of religion, culture, etc. 

 

I'm curious, why do you call these folks "fanatical". 

Your answer regarding Veganism/Religion actually confirm the association as you indicate that most vegans are agnostic.

This while it is said that the theory is that veganism /religion is often substituted one for the other.

[Odinson]

Your answer regarding Veganism/Religion actually confirm the association as you indicate that most vegans are agnostic.

This while it is said that the theory is that veganism /religion is often substituted one for the other.

 

My answer is purely on personal experiences. Is there an association? There could be in certain cases. Would that same association hold true for a majority of vegans? Who knows. Correlation ≠ causation. 

 

Drawing any type of conclusions from speculative associations is pointless. 

[GrahamS2]

I would have to disagree with you on the 'infancy' aspect. The China–Cornell–Oxford Project was already published in the 80's, which concluded that (Chinese) counties with a high consumption of animal-based foods in 1983–84 were more likely to have had higher death rates from "Western" diseases as of 1973–75, while the opposite was true for counties that ate more plant-based foods. However, the research is now more mainstream and more widely accepted, than previously. Just take the Physicians' Committee for Responsible Medicine, who are working on evidence based nutrition to prevent, treat and reverse chronic illnesses. 

I would take the results of The China Study with a pinch of salt. There have been numerous critiques of the data interpretation and omissions in the findings. https://chriskresser.com/rest-in-peace-china-study/ , http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html and https://deniseminger.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/  are but a few of the dozens available.

 

This is where it gets interesting, because there is similar evidence showing that a pure meat diet can help with auto immune diseases, among other things. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by GrahamS2

[Odinson]

I would take the results of The China Study with a pinch of salt. There have been numerous critiques of the data interpretation and omissions in the findings. https://chriskresser.com/rest-in-peace-china-study/ , http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html and https://deniseminger.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/  are but a few of the dozens available.

 

This is where it gets interesting, because there is similar evidence showing that a pure meat diet can help with auto immune diseases, among other things. 

 

Critiques of the study by Chris Kresser (an 'alternative medicine' acupuncturist who flogs non-FDA approved cholesterol lowering snake oil on his website) and an internet blogger with no tertiary education. 'Mkay.. 

 

Edit: Please link these all-meat studies. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Odinson

[Imploder]

Cool thread. Could you post links to some studies where other factors have been controlled for? Not outright disagreeing with you, but there's a very blurred area when it comes to long term dietary control studies. Most of the older heart association research data has shown to be inaccurate and thus obsolete, and dietary cholesterol is turning out to not be the killer it was always labelled as.

 

Another interesting association I recently read about is the one between religion and veganism, the theory being that one is often substituted for the other. Both of the vegans in my direct circle of friends came from strong religious backgrounds, and are now, what I'd call, fanatical vegans. So I wonder if there's any merit to that? Apologies for mentioning vegan and religion in the same sentence. This thread may implode.

wasn't me

[Paddaman]

So plastic clothes are in?

[Grease_Monkey]

On a serious note (not trolling) - how do you cope with no animal products in your diet? Just from a convenience and taste perspective?

 

I eat very unhealthily, lots of red meat, very little veg. As an effort to change that I have committed to one month of pescetarian food only (so vegie + fish for those who don't know). My diet still includes animal products such as eggs, cheese, milk, honey, etc. The idea behind the change is that by cutting out meat I force myself to eat more veg thereby discover new foods. So far it has worked - I've found lots of new foods I like and when I reintroduce meat next month I will try my best for it to be less of a centre point of the meal, and rather just a part of the meal.

 

The places where I have struggled most to stick to it is eating out (few options that appeal to me), and I struggle to stay full. I feel the protein aspect is lacking a bit (I'm not a fan of beans/lentils/chickpeas) and I am trying not to eat fish with every meal (defeats the purpose of my experiment).

 

Now, without cheese, yoghurt, eggs, milk, and and and.... what do you eat? How do you keep variety in your diet? And what do you do for quick/easy meals as it seems that there is no easy and balanced options for vegans - most of the meals seem to need lots of prep?

 

I'm not going to become vegan (can't even manage pescetarian or vegetarian), so I am asking more from a curiosity perspective...

 

I get the reasoning behind veganism - I just don't get how practically you manage day to day - it must consume every part of your life - you have to plan every eat out, can't just pop in for a cappucino or quick lunch somewhere? Or am I missing something?

Edited November 27, 2018 by Grease_Monkey

[Eldron]

The secret to good vegetarian/vegan food is spicing. Meat is fairly easy - it already has a very strong flavour - all you need to do is enhance the flavour.

 

Vegan/veggie cooking you need to build a flavour profile from scratch. It's takes a while to perfect but once done you don't miss the meat.

 

I eat vegan/vegetarian at home most nights and eat meat when I go out. I actually look forward to meat more now and really enjoy it when I eat it.

 

I don't believe in diets that exclude food groups. You don't get as much nutrient variation.

 

Cutting out meat is good for the environment but cutting out all meat is bad for the human (emotionally and physically!).

[Wayne Potgieter]

Been Vegetarian for over 18 months now.

 

We eat strictly Vegan at home but are a litle more flexible when eating out or on holiday. We might introduce small amounts of dairy or eggs in baked goods but never actual meat.

 

I absolutely love it.

 

I feel great and am in the best shape of my life. My daughters exema has been cured and my children seem to be more experimental in how they eat.

 

Eldron is right, its all about spices. We genuinely no longer long for meat or animal products.

 

I genuinely believe each to their own and dont judge the meat eaters even though they are mass murderers (kidding kidding)

 

I dont care what you eat and I dont discuss what I eat (unless actually asked by an interested party)

 

I think there are a lot more vegans than most people realise, but not all of us preach and shout it from the rooftops.

 

I have been doing a lot of nutrition research as part of my Bsc and am abasolutely amazed at how little most people know about what they put in their bodies.

 

will be following this thread closely.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Wayne Potgieter

[GrahamS2]

Critiques of the study by Chris Kresser (an 'alternative medicine' acupuncturist who flogs non-FDA approved cholesterol lowering snake oil on his website) and an internet blogger with no tertiary education. 'Mkay.. 

 

Edit: Please link these all-meat studies. 

Didn't realise you needed a phd to pick up basic omissions and highlight cherry picked data from an epidemiology study, but ok. Chris Masterjohn (phd) had the exact same findings.  The study, it should be mentioned, also doesn't appear to control for other causal or mitigating factors like exposure to carcinogens, exercise, family history, etc. As mentioned, there's a lack of proper clinical studies when it comes to nutritional science.      

[Paddaman]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farmed-meat-dairy-soya-maize

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/201412/84-vegetarians-and-vegans-return-meat-why

 

https://youtu.be/z0O_VYcsIk8