Classified – “you’ve tried 1x, now try 1 better!”

[DieselnDust]

2 minutes ago, Furbz said:

shot.

what would it be for a traditional drivetrain?

Generally around 99% to 97% depending on the environmental conditions. There are circumstances where the planetary system is more efficient.

chain drives can dip as low as <90%

[100Tours]

to be fair to Classified they have come up with an innovative solution to address the limits of 11s drivetrains.  But SRAM came out with 12s, and that mostly addressed those issues anyway, and all the okes who could afford Classified went 12s long ago. 

[100Tours]

13 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

Generally around 99% to 97% depending on the environmental conditions. There are circumstances where the planetary system is more efficient.

chain drives can dip as low as <90%

Planetary would be more efficient than a front deraileur caked with cane field mud, but thats about it. 

[Jewbacca]

12 minutes ago, 100Tours said:

to be fair to Classified they have come up with an innovative solution to address the limits of 11s drivetrains.  But SRAM came out with 12s, and that mostly addressed those issues anyway, and all the okes who could afford Classified went 12s long ago. 

But this makes it 22 or 24 speed?

[WIPEOUT 1000]

Solving 1 perceived problem (the front derailleur) with a multiple of others. All things being equal, a couple of obvious negatives that come to mind:

• Mechanically, it has more parts and is significantly more complicated that a standard hub and front derailleur combination
• The planetary gears in the Classified hub has to be less efficient than a standard hub
• It forces one to cross chain, which is again less efficient 
• It is proprietary, if you break a wheel you have a problem 
• It is not clear to my how one integrates it into an existing ecosystem (e.g.DI2, AXS, EPS)
• It is significantly heavier than a standard freehub 
• It is really expensive compared to the alternatives

In summary it a proprietary solution that is more complicated, less efficient and heavier than the obvious alternative.

The only question I have is why?

Edited April 4, 2023 by WIPEOUT 1000

[Headshot]

7 minutes ago, WIPEOUT 1000 said:

Solving 1 perceived problem (the front derailleur) with a multiple of others. All things being equal, a couple of obvious negatives that come to mind:

• Mechanically, it has more parts and is significantly more complicated that a standard hub and front derailleur combination
• The planetary gears in the Classified hub has to be less efficient than a standard hub
• It forces one to cross chain, which is again less efficient 
• It is proprietary, if you break a wheel you have a problem 
• It is not clear to my how one integrates it into an existing ecosystem (e.g.DI2, AXS, EPS)
• It is significantly heavier than a standard freehub 
• It is really expensive compared to the alternatives

In summary it a proprietary solution that is more complicated, less efficient and heavier than the obvious alternative.

The only question I have is why?

They perceive cyclists as a gullible market, always ready to spend bug bucks on the next "big thing". I wonder where they got that idea from? SRAM perhaps? 🙂 

[100Tours]

11 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

But this makes it 22 or 24 speed?

In a 2x drivetrain you generally only use a little more than half the cluster with each chainring - so you have maybe 2x7 = 14 ratios that you regularly use with a 2x11 drivetrain. (vs 12 ratios in a 1x12 drive)

You're trying to solve 3 issues really - 

The range of gears available - SRAM Eagle has a 520% range on a 10-52 cassette, Classified are advertising 534% as their top end option.

The size of the steps between the gears - and 2x drivetrains do have an advantage here. Eagle will have steps of 15-20% increases between gears, Classified will have maybe 10%-15% steps.

Weight - and Eagle is proabably lighter? I haven't checked.

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by 100Tours

[BikeisLife]

13 minutes ago, WIPEOUT 1000 said:

Solving 1 perceived problem (the front derailleur) with a multiple of others. All things being equal, a couple of obvious negatives that come to mind:

• Mechanically, it has more parts and is significantly more complicated that a standard hub and front derailleur combination
• The planetary gears in the Classified hub has to be less efficient than a standard hub
• It forces one to cross chain, which is again less efficient 
• It is proprietary, if you break a wheel you have a problem 
• It is not clear to my how one integrates it into an existing ecosystem (e.g.DI2, AXS, EPS)
• It is significantly heavier than a standard freehub 
• It is really expensive compared to the alternatives

In summary it a proprietary solution that is more complicated, less efficient and heavier than the obvious alternative.

The only question I have is why?

The game changer is for Gravel & Road with being able to run a NW chainring on the front with the same/similar range. No chain drops on the front etc. 

If running di2, it will fit in to the lever just like the FD would, so seamless. AXS, there is no integration yet, so they offer a button that can be fitted anywhere like a sram BLIP button. 

There is a bunch of teams on the WT using this system already. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by BikeisLife

[WIPEOUT 1000]

A chain catcher can achieve exactly the same outcome, it attaches to the front derailleur hanger, has no moving parts, weighs basically nothing, is really cheap and most importantly works.

Even when Wout van Aert rode SRAM 1x during the 2023 Milan San Remo, he still used a chain catcher.  

 

[Jewbacca]

14 minutes ago, 100Tours said:

In a 2x drivetrain you generally only use a little more than half the cluster with each chainring - so you have maybe 2x7 = 14 ratios that you regularly use with a 2x11 drivetrain. (vs 12 ratios in a 1x12 drive)

You're trying to solve 3 issues really - 

The range of gears available - SRAM Eagle has a 520% range on a 10-52 cassette, Classified are advertising 534% as their top end option.

The size of the steps between the gears - and 2x drivetrains do have an advantage here. Eagle will have steps of 15-20% increases between gears, Classified will have maybe 10%-15% steps.

Weight - and Eagle is proabably lighter? I haven't checked.

 

Look, I'm not in the market for this. I don't even own 12 speed kit. 

I have 2x11 on my road and gravel bike.

2x on the gravel bike because I like having closer ratios and the option to bail out should I need to.

Being able to do this with a really cool looking 1x system would be awesome. 

IMHO the bike industry is constantly 'solving' problems that don't exist. If they are close to the perceived norm then people seem to love it, but as soon as they vary too far from what is perceived as 'the industry standard' then it is mostly poo-poo'd.

I remember the absolute disdain shown to dropper posts when they first started popping up. Never mind 29 inch wagon wheels!

Science aside, it's a nifty toy, which has some real world appeal. That is basically what defines the entire sport for those not racing at the front in UCI or age group registered categories 

[lechatnoir]

16 minutes ago, WIPEOUT 1000 said:

Solving 1 perceived problem (the front derailleur) with a multiple of others. All things being equal, a couple of obvious negatives that come to mind:

• Mechanically, it has more parts and is significantly more complicated that a standard hub and front derailleur combination - More parts, yes, but possibly bomb-proof. or not... time will tell... 
• The planetary gears in the Classified hub has to be less efficient than a standard hub - planetary gears are around 97% effiency, regular drive train ~97%, so introducing a bit of loss as you state, but keeping in mind that the Classified hub can help keep a straighter chainline when used by an attentive rider, some of those losses can be gained back
• It forces one to cross chain, which is again less efficient - if used on a 1x11/12, this isn't exacerbated at all = 'crosschaining' already happens. As noted above, perhaps straighter chainlines can be achieved
• It is proprietary, if you break a wheel you have a problem - I think you can get the hub on its own, but yes... proprietary stuff is always tricky
• It is not clear to my how one integrates it into an existing ecosystem (e.g.DI2, AXS, EPS) - you'd guess that was considered
• It is significantly heavier than a standard freehub - but without an FD, this mightn't be an issue. I think WHERE the weight is may be the issue (at the back - Nino's tailwhips will not look so good with added weight at the back), but 200g... not a dealbreaker IMO, considering the gains on offer - after all, who doesn't have multiples of 200g to lose around their middle?
• It is really expensive compared to the alternatives - compared to an FD, you're spot on, but are there any direct competitors? This is interesting and moved bike tech forward which is good even if I can't afford is, which is clearly bad IMO.... ;-D

In summary it a proprietary solution that is more complicated, less efficient and heavier than the obvious alternative.

The only question I have is why?

the answer to your last question is obvious - people with money will shower Classified with it because it's 'there' and they can afford it. will it make a difference to me? no, but it's interesting anyway.

One upside I just thought of is that it can allow me to run a smaller cassette, with better cog-spacing with less severe jumps, making for better pedaling maybe? and a smaller cassette may even offset the 270g (I checked) weight diff?

solving one problem by introducing (potentially) others is what we've done since we realised what thumbs were for and I'd guess that history has shown we've managed OK anyway. And remember, version 1 is just a start, not the end 

[thebob]

34 minutes ago, BikeisLife said:

There is a bunch of teams on the WT using this system already. 

Nope. Campenaerts has run it a few times as has Unno-X. No team is running it full time

[BikeisLife]

Just now, thebob said:

Nope. Campenaerts has run it a few times as has Unno-X. No team is running it full time

I didn't mention full time... It has been used though. Some have used it in the TT's too. It's not easily spotted. 

[WIPEOUT 1000]

2 minutes ago, thebob said:

Nope. Campenaerts has run it a few times as has Unno-X. No team is running it full time

Yes and when he used it, he used a modified front derailleur as a chain catcher

https://bikerumor.com/campenaerts-races-classifieds-internally-geared-hub-w-62-tooth-chainring/

[NickGM]

1 hour ago, DieselnDust said:

Basically if the input force is 100N the output gear will deliver a force of  93N.

torque is a different matter but basically it will be 93% less than what the calculated value would be for the gear ratio.

93% less torque than what I was putting in? No this is definitely not the drivetrain for me.

[Shebeen]

will omnico sell this directly in the classified section?