CSA introduces National Road Cycling Series

[Frosty]

Just now, ChrisF said:

Surely ebikers don’t have to pay for a CSA day license .... 😋

PLEASE read in Comic Sans ....🙈

They should pay per battery used. 🤪🤣

[ChrisF]

Just now, Frosty said:

They should pay per battery used. 🤪🤣

 

Not sure I have enough in my budget .... 😋

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Off topic .... ironically my lowest battery use is during road races, as I spend so much time above the speed assist level.

[DanMan]

On 7/28/2023 at 5:54 PM, Frosty said:

I think what they are trying to do is good, but it appeals to a small number of participants. Race Organisers currently foot the bill to organise the event, so the risk remains with them to be profitable, which requires bums on saddles, or a decent sponsorship, of if they’re lucky both.

So whether it’s value (money spend) for a sponsor, or for the participants, it’s always going to be rough start. But if they don’t try, they won’t know.

Hi Frosty, I am trying to understand what you are saying when you say "What they are trying to do is good" 

As you summed it up the race organisers have to foot the bill for the events and they take the risk. My question is what is CyclingSA bringing to the table to support the events? From my perspective all I am seeing is CyclingSA drew up a document to say the following races are in a series and here are the points you could earn if you perform at them. But from there you only get a pat on the back as confirmed by Zeffer.

There is more value for me to go do a seeding race to get a better seeding for the CTCT or 94.7 as I am getting something back for my efforts. I honestly cannot see why I must travel to do these races nominated by CyclingSA. Yes this is a brand-new initiative but it's not selling anything of value to attract new riders. Like I said before I would love to support my federation but I cannot see what their aim is here. 

[Jewbacca]

5 minutes ago, DanMan said:

Hi Frosty, I am trying to understand what you are saying when you say "What they are trying to do is good" 

As you summed it up the race organisers have to foot the bill for the events and they take the risk. My question is what is CyclingSA bringing to the table to support the events? From my perspective all I am seeing is CyclingSA drew up a document to say the following races are in a series and here are the points you could earn if you perform at them. But from there you only get a pat on the back as confirmed by Zeffer.

There is more value for me to go do a seeding race to get a better seeding for the CTCT or 94.7 as I am getting something back for my efforts. I honestly cannot see why I must travel to do these races nominated by CyclingSA. Yes this is a brand-new initiative but it's not selling anything of value to attract new riders. Like I said before I would love to support my federation but I cannot see what their aim is here. 

Then this isn't for you?

CSA isn't going to create new races as the ones on the calendar currently aren't getting enough bums in seats. 

This is a very simple way of making the current races 'more appealing' and try to get people who may have done one or two, to do three or four.

This means more people at the races (hopefully), which is better for the organisers and cycling.

It's a start, not a finished product, but if nobody buys in, it won't get off the ground.

If it doesn't appeal to you, then that's cool, but there is definitely merit and appeal to linking already existing races into a series. Some people will see the appeal and hopefully get to an extra race or two. The events still exist as a stand alone entity too, so if you are a 1 race a year person, then it's business as usual.

I don't work for CSA and I don't even do road races. But I do see the appeal of creating a series out of existing races and how it might attract more people/outliers. 

As a very avid bike rider, my main issue with road races is the competitive nature of it's portrayal. Much like Epic, the Elites actually need the buffalo backmarkers to finance the sport. So CSA needs to find a way to make road riding more inclusive and less intimidating.

The elites/top guys gatekeeping don't help 

[bleedToWin]

For JHB based riders we will see if this league manages to increase participation in Free State and Amashova. I doubt it since the teams with money were already doing these races. Perhaps there will be some interest in the points ranking, but that wont lead to increased revenue for organisers.

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, DanMan said:

Hi Frosty, I am trying to understand what you are saying when you say "What they are trying to do is good" 

The bold text answers your question.

They are trialing 6 events for now and will add more for next year. Zeffer has already mentioned this in a previous post, after some questioned why the 6 events. They (CyclingSA) don’t have the resources to organise events, so rely on event organisers to continue doing that they do. The problem is that the series only attracts the racing folk (the bold text which answers your question) and doesn’t cater for the rest of the participants, namely the weekend warriors. Events need numbers, so there needs to be an incentive for the weekend warriors too.

While I think what they are trying is good, doesn’t mean alI agree with it. I have stated in another thread that there seems to be lack of a clear direction from CyclingSA, as well as Provincial Affiliates, in who their target market is. They can’t cater for the upcoming Pros that want to race overseas, at the expense of the rest; their needs are poles apart from the locals.

The National series is only accessible by those with deep pockets, and not necessarily by talented riders without (deep pockets or sponsorship). I would rather they have local events that allows one to compete for provincial representation, then have an Inter Provincial event where they compete against each other. This way colours are awarded and the expenses are kept to an affordable level. Other sports operate this way, where they have local competition and 1 or two inter provincial events per year, the Nationals.

[DanMan]

Thanks for your replies @Frosty and @Jewbacca.

Like you've said CyclingSA needs to find direction in what they want to do. If they want to focus on elite/Tops guys, then great more power to them. But then they should not make statements that their membership numbers a dwindling and they cannot understand why. 

Me as a CyclingSA member find it very frustrating to engage with CyclingSA on this topic. I always get generic answers like "It's new something new and we should support it, or we are working on something". It just feels like no one takes responsibility to answer these questions or take necessary action/steps to rectify the situation. 

I just feel the BikeHub is the only place I can air my frustrations. At least fellow hubbers will respond🤣

[The Ouzo]

a suggestion based from my side

Why dont CSA have a league entry fee that gets you into these 6 races at a discounted cost vs entering them individually.

The cost saving plus earning league points from the races may increase appeal a little more. more people entering means more funds to the league which can then grow by adding more appeal.

[Spinnekop]

On 6/23/2023 at 11:55 AM, bleedToWin said:

1. Don't bother with teams outside of Elites. Vets are perfectly happy using team tactics to win individual categories without the need for a team category.
2. Make vets categories in 10 year brackets, not the 5-year brackets of our licenses.
3. Consider having two vets categories per start group as a standard for the entire series and mandate race numbers that can easily be differentiated between categories.
4. Drive a social campaign pursuing serious A-groupers or Open riders to license up and join the race categories. Maybe even subtly appeal to the ego by referring to the A-group as the social riders and fun riders. I'd go as far as emailing all open group entrants with a decent seeding "congratulations, you qualify for an upgrade to race group X, here's what you need to do to."
5. Verify license categories (at all events, not just those forming part of this Series), or drop the rule that states a rider with a Vets license may not enter as an Elite. Automate this at time of entry, no faffing about at registration.

I'll license up when CSA starts to SEED people according to ability and not according to the amount they pay.

[Spinnekop]

41 minutes ago, The Ouzo said:

a suggestion based from my side

Why dont CSA have a league entry fee that gets you into these 6 races at a discounted cost vs entering them individually.

Lennick promotions already do this.  I think it is quite cool.  
"Series of events" that you entries at a reduced fee

[Spinnekop]

7 minutes ago, Spinnekop said:

I'll license up when CSA starts to SEED people according to ability and not according to the amount they pay.

One thing the "old days" did right is that good racing's reward was to get a good seeding and also it gave you a chance to go do SA's.
You did not automatically go to SA's when you pay your license and entry.  You had to EARN it.

There wasn't preferential treatment to the guys paying extra money to CSA.  
You had A, B, C, D.  You race well, you move up.  Top 10 seeding in your age got you an invite to SA's (or something to that effect)
Race good at provincial level = got your provincial colors (currently the criteria to get colors are stupid and do not get rewarded for CONSISTANT good racing results)  I have my colors so I have some knowledge as to how it currently works.
Also the current "get your colors" motivation is kinda dead.  You don't need your colors to go race at SA champs.
You go invited to go do SA champs if you did well during the year.  Your province did that admin.  
But it was an honor to go race at SA's.  You WANTED to go do it because your province selected you.  So we did.  

I think the main issue (and I am only guessing here) with the above is that they (CSA) will loose valuable (to them) license fees from Vets.  Understandably this is not an option if they want to survive as an organisation.
My proposal would be to up the current "membership fee" to all riders in a way that it will counter the current income stream generated by Vets.  Get rid of the admin and bunch issues and stuff wrt to the VETS.  Focus on the Elites (career orientated)
Thus: 

1. CSA Professional license (Ages 18-40 or whatever) racing in the first batch with a cap on batch size.
2. CSA Racing affiliation fee for participation in SA events.

Let the race organisers sort out the seeding and bunches A-Z.  

Just a thought or two.

[Jewbacca]

9 minutes ago, Spinnekop said:

One thing the "old days" did right is that good racing's reward was to get a good seeding and also it gave you a chance to go do SA's.
You did not automatically go to SA's when you pay your license and entry.  You had to EARN it.

There wasn't preferential treatment to the guys paying extra money to CSA.  
You had A, B, C, D.  You race well, you move up.  Top 10 seeding in your age got you an invite to SA's (or something to that effect)
Race good at provincial level = got your provincial colors (currently the criteria to get colors are stupid and do not get rewarded for CONSISTANT good racing results)  I have my colors so I have some knowledge as to how it currently works.
Also the current "get your colors" motivation is kinda dead.  You don't need your colors to go race at SA champs.
You go invited to go do SA champs if you did well during the year.  Your province did that admin.  
But it was an honor to go race at SA's.  You WANTED to go do it because your province selected you.  So we did.  

I think the main issue (and I am only guessing here) with the above is that they (CSA) will loose valuable (to them) license fees from Vets.  Understandably this is not an option if they want to survive as an organisation.
My proposal would be to up the current "membership fee" to all riders in a way that it will counter the current income stream generated by Vets.  Get rid of the admin and bunch issues and stuff wrt to the VETS.  Focus on the Elites (career orientated)
Thus: 

1. CSA Professional license (Ages 18-40 or whatever) racing in the first batch with a cap on batch size.
2. CSA Racing affiliation fee for participation in SA events.

Let the race organisers sort out the seeding and bunches A-Z.  

Just a thought or two.

The thing is, the money isn't in the Elites. I'm also just going to suggest that almost nobody racing CSA Elite is making a career out of cycling. 

The Elite group will always be there. They exist to race bikes, so realistically they are the group you need to focus on the least. The issue is sustainability. In order to keep the lights on, Events and the governing body need more bums in seats.

They need to appeal to the opposite of the Elites to up the numbers and finance the top end side of racing you're after.

Those at the top end already exist, you're not suddenly going to have more top end cyclists. What you need is more middle and bottom end hackers paying the bills.

CSA and Event organisers need to appeal to a wider audience and make things accessible and less daunting for average people. Elites will piggy back off the financial gains 

 

[Spinnekop]

38 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

The thing is, the money isn't in the Elites. I'm also just going to suggest that almost nobody racing CSA Elite is making a career out of cycling. 

The Elite group will always be there. They exist to race bikes, so realistically they are the group you need to focus on the least. The issue is sustainability. In order to keep the lights on, Events and the governing body need more bums in seats.

They need to appeal to the opposite of the Elites to up the numbers and finance the top end side of racing you're after.

Those at the top end already exist, you're not suddenly going to have more top end cyclists. What you need is more middle and bottom end hackers paying the bills.

CSA and Event organisers need to appeal to a wider audience and make things accessible and less daunting for average people. Elites will piggy back off the financial gains 

 

I think we say the same thing.  Just opposite understanding.
Yes, Elites will always be there.  (Cut cost by not including Vets in overheads)
Yes, middle and bottom pay the bills.  (Raise income by raising affiliation fee to CSA but make the "value" to include provincials and SA champs)

The barrier to entry for most people is the R850 fee to CSA if you want to pay your way to do provincials or SA's
My arguing point would be that if my R400 a year all inclusive (just a proposal) were to allow me to race in seeded bunches (no more Vets) and I can go to provincials and SA's, I would pay it with a smile.  

[Jewbacca]

5 minutes ago, Spinnekop said:

I think we say the same thing.  Just opposite understanding.
Yes, Elites will always be there.  (Cut cost by not including Vets in overheads)
Yes, middle and bottom pay the bills.  (Raise income by raising affiliation fee to CSA but make the "value" to include provincials and SA champs)

The barrier to entry for most people is the R850 fee to CSA if you want to pay your way to do provincials or SA's
My arguing point would be that if my R400 a year all inclusive (just a proposal) were to allow me to race in seeded bunches (no more Vets) and I can go to provincials and SA's, I would pay it with a smile.  

Ah ok... But I am still hazy on the who.

The people CSA/Events need to get involved won't be interested or good enough to go to Inter provincials or SA's.

I think the barrier for most average/hacker cyclists and getting them at road races is perception and assistance.

Most road events market prizes or winning times etc instead of explaining what the cut offs are, slow rider procedure and assistance as well as on route support stations 

I was always super interested in doing the WC league races, but was scared of getting dropped and then being left out in the middle of nowhere with no support.

The whole focus of the offer needs to change in order to get more people involved. Good riders who simply don't know how it works and the information isn't available or that level of support doesn't exist.

If CSA wants more members, more revenue and more people at bike races, they need to offer things and market things at a different crowd entirely.

[Spinnekop]

10 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

Ah ok... But I am still hazy on the who.

The people CSA/Events need to get involved won't be interested or good enough to go to Inter provincials or SA's.

I think the barrier for most average/hacker cyclists and getting them at road races is perception and assistance.

Most road events market prizes or winning times etc instead of explaining what the cut offs are, slow rider procedure and assistance as well as on route support stations 

I was always super interested in doing the WC league races, but was scared of getting dropped and then being left out in the middle of nowhere with no support.

The whole focus of the offer needs to change in order to get more people involved. Good riders who simply don't know how it works and the information isn't available or that level of support doesn't exist.

If CSA wants more members, more revenue and more people at bike races, they need to offer things and market things at a different crowd entirely.

I like that.
Almost have a basic "spec sheet" for every event with minimum information.

1. Water points
2. Cut-off
3. Safety features
4. Venue things to do and buy
5. etc

For me, organisers can leave the prize money.  Instead, organise a 5min-after-the-race top 5 podium, take photos and give out a free entry to next month/year's race.  Or something to that effect.

[Jewbacca]

16 minutes ago, Spinnekop said:

I like that.
Almost have a basic "spec sheet" for every event with minimum information.

1. Water points
2. Cut-off
3. Safety features
4. Venue things to do and buy
5. etc

For me, organisers can leave the prize money.  Instead, organise a 5min-after-the-race top 5 podium, take photos and give out a free entry to next month/year's race.  Or something to that effect.

Exactly! Instead of banging on about what the racing groups feature, aim at providing the masses the right information and product to get them there to hack around behind the racing groups.

A basic info sheet and some sort of assurances that you will be safe and looked after will go a huge way in getting people to events.