Save Deer Park Forest: Stop Sugarbird Projects now!

[NGM]

While not specific to deer park, all you have to do is read the first paragraph of this to see one of the many reasons that there is an incentive to remove the exotic trees from table mountain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose's_ghost_frog

Note, this frog exists nowhere else on earth. Unlike the invasive Grey Squirrel which has a healthy population in its native US and several countries in europe where it was introduced to devastating effect. 

Large stands of Eucalyptus and Pine are known Stream Flow Reduction Activities. A world famous study on this was actually carried out in Jonkershoek, Stellenbosch. I'll happily read any evidence to the contrary. 

The people in the 1700s who thought the vegetation was dull and boring probably didn't realize they were looking at the smallest (by land area), yet most genetically diverse floral kingdom on earth. 

 

Edited January 16 by NGM
typos

[Robbie Stewart]

After the fires at Jonkershoek a good few years back the recovery has been amazing. At the top of Plumber, the hillside used to be sparse with little vegetation, but now, the proteas and other fynbos have bounced back magnificently. 

This pic was taken the day after boxing day and those proteas are above head high. Sadly, the lower slopes have got new pine plantations growing which will eventually destroy the smaller vegetation growing beneath them now. But then, it remains MTO forestry area, and that is the purpose of that land.

[Headshot]

12 hours ago, DemitriN said:

Please help save Deer Park forest from extinction and preserve the wildlife that has called it home for the past hundred years 🙏🏽🌲🌲🌲

https://c.org/YttswwB8zK

Squirrels are alein invasive species. I personally like them but they're not conservation  worthy. 

Are you sure you're not just pulling our collective leg here?:-)

[Headshot]

11 hours ago, Shebeen said:

was going to post this earlier, but got busy.

pic from Cape Historical FB group.

date unknown, but guessing early 20th century.

That is a lot of forest up there!!

 

I can sympathise with the vibes that the Parkscape people are doing at Tokai(and beyond), I'm ok with pockets of alien remaining if they serve a purpose and are well managed (and the restored fynbos stuff is actually managed too). but I can't really personally support them because they come across as the creepiest of weirdos that scare the bejeesus out of me.

Parkscape is not the real enemy. It's another group who act in a clandestine fashion. They refuse to engage and do not announce their actions. These are the botanical activists who on various occasions have tried to get the bike trails at TokaiMTB shut down with factually inaccurate  complaints to the Environment Department. 

[DemitriN]

1 hour ago, Gr3mlin131 said:

Not  sure what you are trying to prove with this picture. This is from a different place Company`s Garden (https://www.roselinde.me/companys-garden/), has nothing to do with Deer Park. Also it is showing a grey squirrel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_gray_squirrel), which is not native outside of North America, so is displacing the actual native fauna. I will be happy if they cull the generic pines and eucalyptus trees and get the area back to the unique Fynbos that is only in South Africa. 

Thanks for taking the time to write on this post and share your perspective! The squirrels in the company gardens are the exact same variety as those in Deer Park Forest. 

Am I understanding you and other posters correctly that anything (plant or animal) originating outside our borders has no right to exist in our space? Must the squirrels also be caught and culled along with the pines? Very interesting perspectives here! 🪓😅

Irony of all this is that 99% of the vegetation in our gardens and 99% of our pets originate outside of SA - not to mention most of us! 😬

[Gr3mlin131]

1 minute ago, DemitriN said:

Thanks for taking the time to write on this post and share your perspective! The squirrels in the company gardens are the exact same variety as those in Deer Park Forest. 

Am I understanding you and other posters correctly that anything (plant or animal) originating outside our borders has no right to exist in our space? Must the squirrels also be caught and culled along with the pines? Very interesting perspectives here! 🪓😅

Irony of all this is that 99% of the vegetation in our gardens and 99% of our pets originate outside of SA - not to mention most of us! 😬

We are in a water scarce country, so all the outside vegetation is a massive issue. My garden is filled with indigenous trees and plants and therefore I can get away with not watering them to save our scarce water resources.

What you do in your garden your business. But in our national parks we need to protect our unique biodiversity. You summed it up so nicely, yes in our national parks get rid off all outside plants and animals to create a safe space for our indigenous animals and plants to thrive. 

[Headshot]

40 minutes ago, DemitriN said:

Thanks for taking the time to write on this post and share your perspective! The squirrels in the company gardens are the exact same variety as those in Deer Park Forest. 

Am I understanding you and other posters correctly that anything (plant or animal) originating outside our borders has no right to exist in our space? Must the squirrels also be caught and culled along with the pines? Very interesting perspectives here! 🪓😅

Irony of all this is that 99% of the vegetation in our gardens and 99% of our pets originate outside of SA - not to mention most of us! 😬

Quoting statistics without any factual basis is not good activism. False equivalence is another poor tactic in a debate. 

(I feed my squirrels a healthy diet of almond nuts every spring from the two alien nut trees in my garden but they also enjoy the small seeds on my Celtis Africanus trees as well after they've decimated the nuts. Some might call them pests but I've resisted the urge to despatch them and claim the hundreds of nuts for myself. ) 

[U1Nanimous]

1 hour ago, DemitriN said:

Thanks for taking the time to write on this post and share your perspective! The squirrels in the company gardens are the exact same variety as those in Deer Park Forest. 

Am I understanding you and other posters correctly that anything (plant or animal) originating outside our borders has no right to exist in our space? Must the squirrels also be caught and culled along with the pines? Very interesting perspectives here! 🪓😅

Irony of all this is that 99% of the vegetation in our gardens and 99% of our pets originate outside of SA - not to mention most of us! 😬

Hi Demitri, 

I'm starting to think you really are just taking us for a ride, but Kudos if you are, if not, please remember, and this is based on my property alone.

The Flora in my garden might be as diverse as our collective urban spaces, but I think your statistic here is still flawed, as for the Fauna thriving in said garden... 
One 4 legged mammal of German (European) heritage, and one very much Africanis (might have some Jackel in there... git this .. Weird tail hey).. but I digress, the statistics on this is more 50/50.

But I would be remiss if I did not also state that my garden is not a national park. 

Thus, I do not think it has the same relevance or bearing as a state park or public open space. 

 

 

[DemitriN]

13 hours ago, Shebeen said:

was going to post this earlier, but got busy.

pic from Cape Historical FB group.

date unknown, but guessing early 20th century.

That is a lot of forest up there!!

 

I can sympathise with the vibes that the Parkscape people are doing at Tokai(and beyond), I'm ok with pockets of alien remaining if they serve a purpose and are well managed (and the restored fynbos stuff is actually managed too). but I can't really personally support them because they come across as the creepiest of weirdos that scare the bejeesus out of me.

Amazing photo! Thanks so much for posting and for your support 

[U1Nanimous]

Oh, 

And on wild animals (Not talking about J/Bay hangouts), do we all remember the great Rabbit and deer cullings on Robin Island, where non native species wrecked the local habitat? 

https://www.environment.co.za/wildlife-endangered-species/robben-island-deer-cull-on-cards.html

[Shebeen]

2 hours ago, NGM said:

While not specific to deer park, all you have to do is read the first paragraph of this to see one of the many reasons that there is an incentive to remove the exotic trees from table mountain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose's_ghost_frog

Note, this frog exists nowhere else on earth. Unlike the invasive Grey Squirrel which has a healthy population in its native US and several countries in europe where it was introduced to devastating effect. 

ja ja, I know I'm playing devil's advocate here but the notion that this is a pristine national park really grates me. Deer park is a tiny pocket in the whole park.

2 hours ago, NGM said:

Large stands of Eucalyptus and Pine are known Stream Flow Reduction Activities. A world famous study on this was actually carried out in Jonkershoek, Stellenbosch. I'll happily read any evidence to the contrary. 

The people in the 1700s who thought the vegetation was dull and boring probably didn't realize they were looking at the smallest (by land area), yet most genetically diverse floral kingdom on earth. 

 

Pretty sure the people in the 1700s did not give a singular crap about recreation and aesthetic aspects. They needed wood. Lots of it.

 

1 hour ago, Gr3mlin131 said:

We are in a water scarce country, so all the outside vegetation is a massive issue. My garden is filled with indigenous trees and plants and therefore I can get away with not watering them to save our scarce water resources.

What you do in your garden your business. But in our national parks we need to protect our unique biodiversity. You summed it up so nicely, yes in our national parks get rid off all outside plants and animals to create a safe space for our indigenous animals and plants to thrive. 

National Park is so arbitrary here being right on the CBD urban edge! Here's a clip from the 1:50 000 map, check the little finger that extends into the suburbs above the red line, must we now protect this as it is NATIONAL PARK? This actually includes the Herzlia sports field, with some irrigated exotic grass not from the area. (actually think these boundaries might be wrong, but the point remains the same).

Secondly the orange arrow is GS estate, not national park so let's build a casino there.

[Gr3mlin131]

1 minute ago, Shebeen said:

ja ja, I know I'm playing devil's advocate here but the notion that this is a pristine national park really grates me. Deer park is a tiny pocket in the whole park.

Pretty sure the people in the 1700s did not give a singular crap about recreation and aesthetic aspects. They needed wood. Lots of it.

 

National Park is so arbitrary here being right on the CBD urban edge! Here's a clip from the 1:50 000 map, check the little finger that extends into the suburbs above the red line, must we now protect this as it is NATIONAL PARK? This actually includes the Herzlia sports field, with some irrigated exotic grass not from the area. (actually think these boundaries might be wrong, but the point remains the same).

Secondly the orange arrow is GS estate, not national park so let's build a casino there.

Good point, "national park" might be a bit arbitrary for replacing with indigenous plants. I would actually prefer to keep most of the plants indigenous everywhere, but the parks are a good start. However perfect is the opposite of good. So does not need to be only local plants and animals, but trending more in that direction is a good idea for me. 

 

[Headshot]

19 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

ja ja, I know I'm playing devil's advocate here but the notion that this is a pristine national park really grates me. Deer park is a tiny pocket in the whole park.

Pretty sure the people in the 1700s did not give a singular crap about recreation and aesthetic aspects. They needed wood. Lots of it.

 

National Park is so arbitrary here being right on the CBD urban edge! Here's a clip from the 1:50 000 map, check the little finger that extends into the suburbs above the red line, must we now protect this as it is NATIONAL PARK? This actually includes the Herzlia sports field, with some irrigated exotic grass not from the area. (actually think these boundaries might be wrong, but the point remains the same).

Secondly the orange arrow is GS estate, not national park so let's build a casino there.

You're doing the devil's advocate thing quite well 🙂 

[Bro Derek]

22 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

ja ja, I know I'm playing devil's advocate here but the notion that this is a pristine national park really grates me. Deer park is a tiny pocket in the whole park.

Pretty sure the people in the 1700s did not give a singular crap about recreation and aesthetic aspects. They needed wood. Lots of it.

 

National Park is so arbitrary here being right on the CBD urban edge! Here's a clip from the 1:50 000 map, check the little finger that extends into the suburbs above the red line, must we now protect this as it is NATIONAL PARK? This actually includes the Herzlia sports field, with some irrigated exotic grass not from the area. (actually think these boundaries might be wrong, but the point remains the same).

Secondly the orange arrow is GS estate, not national park so let's build a casino there.

I believe there is also a currently long running initiative to remove all alien/destructive species on common land, not just National Parks.

So yes, I'd argue that it is worthwhile re-creating and extending the lower slopes of Table Mountain as much as possible. 

I see no reason other than a weird human belief that our comfort and wants - not even needs - are more important than anything else in nature. We have actively destroyed entire eco systems endemic to the cape, trying to re naturalize space, however small, is more important than a touch of shade

Devil's advocate away, but alien/invasive species have no business being in a natural green space in a national park

[fanievb]

https://invasives.org.za/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/South-Africa-Listed-Invasive-Species-A5-Booklet.pdf

 

[DemitriN]

49 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

ja ja, I know I'm playing devil's advocate here but the notion that this is a pristine national park really grates me. Deer park is a tiny pocket in the whole park.

Pretty sure the people in the 1700s did not give a singular crap about recreation and aesthetic aspects. They needed wood. Lots of it.

 

National Park is so arbitrary here being right on the CBD urban edge! Here's a clip from the 1:50 000 map, check the little finger that extends into the suburbs above the red line, must we now protect this as it is NATIONAL PARK? This actually includes the Herzlia sports field, with some irrigated exotic grass not from the area. (actually think these boundaries might be wrong, but the point remains the same).

Secondly the orange arrow is GS estate, not national park so let's build a casino there.

Thank you! I've just been checking the maps...