LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[tombeej]

Ok, one last thing:

 

The issue of percentage/grams per carb per day is just one side of a coin. The other (just as important) side, is the type of carbs you are eating.

 

In other words, what effect does the food have on your body. Is it nutrient dense, unrefined, unprocessed? Does it make you feel full and light at the same time, or does it give you a sugar high and then drop you afterwards (followed soon by a craving to eat something else)?

 

Here's a very nice post from Peter Attia: http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/do-calories-matter

 

A carb is not just a carb, and a calorie is not just a calorie.

 

And what might affect me one way, might affect you a whole other way.

Edited July 3, 2013 by tombeej

[P.A.K.]

One thing that I am trying now is to have loads of veggies/salad (not fruit) despite their effect on my grams of carbs. I think initially I cut back just about everything except fat and protein and ended up eating much less salad and veggies, which was a mistake.

 

What I am saying is that I won't mind if I ate eg 100g of carbs per day as long as it was only from veggies/salads and my ratio is still fat > protein > carbs

Edited July 3, 2013 by P.A.K.

[Marge]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum, 1 week in the LCHF diet (still have to read up on all the links posted to get more educated though).

Need some help please, how do you guys measure your carb/fat/protein intake so accurately? I tried to log my day’s food in myfitnesspal and got the following for yesterday's intake but don't really know how to read it:

Calories: 897, Carbs: 12, Fat: 52, Protein: 96, Sodium: 1286, Sugar: 2

[tombeej]

I've averaged around 30g a day so far. It's been surprisingly easy to do so.

 

I'm just curious about carb intake around exercise since you metabolise it differently... I take it that it still weighs the same on your daily intake as a normal carb that is not eaten around exercise. ie those 10g of carbs from Almonds eaten while riding would be the same as eating those 10g of carbs around breakfast.

 

So I think my question is, does eating carbs inside and outside of exercising change the fact that you are still eating carbs?

 

I think jcza or davetapson have data around exercise and carbs, and the fact that eating even very high gi carbs makes no difference while you're exercising.

 

So jcza who likes to average 30g daily carbs or less, feels nothing about chowing GUs and other glucose gels in a race.

 

Dave, jcza, help us out here?

Edited July 3, 2013 by tombeej

[Helpmytrap]

@Marge, Join the club, I'm just over a week in. I log all my food on MyFitnessPal, except dinner as it is hard to say exactly what quantities of the various veggies I eat are.

 

@tombeej, The carbs I eat are either from nuts, salad or vegies and of those veggies, lots of broccoli, cauliflower, green string beans and onions. I've given all fruit a kip in the mean time.

Salads for lunch and veggies for dinner, so all my carb sources are quality sources and thus obviously avoid anything dense.

 

Oh and "not from meat" fat sources are coconut oil, olive oil, butter, cream, nuts and the occasional Flaxseed oil.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Helpmytrap

[tombeej]

Another great post from Peter Attia (one of the world leaders in LCHF and high intensity exercise) here.

 

"It’s really important to understand that carbohydrate reduction is a continuum. There is no “right” amount of carbohydrate to eat."

 

So doesn't matter if you're Primal/Paleo (Mark Sisson) or strict LCHF (Peter Attia). The message on carb intake is the same.

 

And also borne out by many of us on this thread who've said the same thing: you'll find out for yourself what works for you i.t.o. carbs based on (1) your genetic makeup/pre-dispositions and (2) your goals.

 

n = 1 FTW

[McD23]

Yesterday I made a thin low-carb pizza base with eggs, grated cheese, cream and spices. It came out okay, tasted quite good because of the toppings (mushrooms, bacon, loads of cheese, jalapenos, and cheated with pineapple too).

 

The base was of course very soft - had to eat it with a knife and fork. At least it helped with my pizza craving, in a flourless way

wife made a grated cauliflower and cheese base other day.

was firm, and tasty very nice.

[McD23]

Anyone who loves mash and misses it a bit, well here's a lekker alternative we tried last night: cauliflower mash.

 

Steam a whole cauliflower head until soft. Then use a food processor to turn it into a fine pulp. Add your preference of butter, cream and salt. Done .

 

Caution: the more cream you add, the runnier it will be.

 

In fact it tastes better than traditional mash IMHO.

Ditto, been using cauliflower for a while.

can also grate it and use it as an alternative to rice for stews and so forth.

[davetapson]

I think jcza or davetapson have data around exercise and carbs, and the fact that eating even very high gi carbs makes no difference while you're exercising.

 

So jcza who likes to average 30g daily carbs or less, feels nothing about chowing GUs and other glucose gels in a race.

 

Dave, jcza, help us out here?

 

It's hard to find proper info that makes sense - I think there are so many vested interests telling you why you should buy their expensive energy mix that the truth gets swamped.

 

The basic issue is that when exercising, you don't have the normal insulin response to carb ingestion. The body uses something called something like the glutame-4 pathway, but I haven't yet managed to find an explanation of it that a layman can understand.

 

The bottom line (this all my understanding, and I'm not an expert) is that it doesn't matter what form of sugar you use while exercising - you don't get the insulin spike that all the slow release / low gi products claim not to give (well, they will have no appreciable insulin spike - plain old sugar wouldn't give you one either.)

 

An observation made by one of the Potch Uni sports docs was that 'it doesn't matter what you take under conditions of exercise, you may as well use Game, it's cheap'.

 

As for the effect of carb intake during exercise on your LCHF lifestyle - my understanding is that it is not a major issue. However, you need to realise that taking carbs during exercise and as a recovery drink reduces the requirement for your liver to produce glucose - which it can do (gluconeogenesis). If you spend the time getting your liver to make the adaptions, you can get to the stage where you don't need to supplement with carbs, even at high exercise intensities. Oscar Chalupsky won the Hawaain surf-ski race that he competes in last year on water alone, as have several other athletes in other disciplines.

 

Once again, this liver adaption thing develops along a continuum - the experience of the guys who post in this thread are that ususally you can train / race at med intesities with no glucose supplementation quite easily, but sustained, high output sessions may require carb supplementation.

 

My n = 1 experience is that I can train / ride happily on water only. In races I only carry water, and if I find myself feeling flat, I just pick up whats available at the water tables - coke and bananas being winners. I used to be paranoid about supplementing with carbs as I'd flake near the end of long races if I didn't have good stuff. Now, I don't really care - I ride with water, and have tubs of expensive sugar slowly going off in the cupboard.

[lloydkayak]

I had huge success on the Dukan Diet (one of Tim Noakes recommendations). I didn't exactly love the removal of fat and controlling of carbs BUT the combinations of graze you can come up with using yogurt and oat bran was incredible.

 

Being able to eat Oat Bran made the eating plan way easier (2-3 tablespoons per day) because you can make a pretty great pizza base, pancake, crumpet, muffin or my best Oat bran bread using eggs, cream cheese, yogurt and 3 tablespoons of oat bran.

 

Question

 

Although the carb content of oat bran seems pretty high (62g/100g or so) it seems that the actual digestible carbs are way lower. It also seems to be very good for the digestive system (not abrasive like wheat bran), traps calories as it travels through and even seems to slow down the effects of ingested carbs on the blood sugar (Lowers GI).

 

Do you feel incorporating a few tablespoons of this per day would really derail LCHF eating?

[davetapson]

My brother has been doing his own version of LCHF (I think Dukan style) for two years or so now - he was at UCT and used to collaborate with Noakes so got started on all this right in the beginning. I think his version is more LC than LCHF - he eats quite a lot of protein.

 

He puts a tablespoon of oat bran in his scrambled eggs every morning. I've tried that, but maybe Aus oat bran and SA oat bran are different because it comes out a bit strange.

 

I do add it now and then to yoghurt for breakfast but am still deciding how I feel about it (and how I feel about yoghurt - I love it, but I think I get fat on it - i.e. have a high glycemic response to it. Alternatively woolies double cream yog has more carb in it than they admit to ).

 

If it does indeed have little digestable carb, then it should make no real difference. I looked on the box this morning before work and it said that it contains 51g digestable(?) carb per 100g. I can't remember exactly as I didn't know I'd be posting about it later! But I figure a tablespoon of bran can't weigh more than a couple grams, so would only count as 1 or 2g of carb?

Edited July 4, 2013 by davetapson

[jcza]

I think jcza or davetapson have data around exercise and carbs, and the fact that eating even very high gi carbs makes no difference while you're exercising.

 

So jcza who likes to average 30g daily carbs or less, feels nothing about chowing GUs and other glucose gels in a race.

 

Dave, jcza, help us out here?

 

You are correct tombeej - I try keep carbs as low as 20gr daily. However when racing I take in carbs in the form of gu & energy drinks. I'm not too bothered with the brand but it is very high GI (half coke/half water) if nothing else is available. I also take in carbs immediately post-exercise. The racing part is not strict LCHF but rather Paleo as described by Friel and Courdain in Paleo for Endurance Athletes.

 

On a side note I find that during winter my carb intake from veg goes up as I am having butternut, pumpkin & other veg instead of salad. I'm not too bothered as long as it is not processed.

 

Continuing carbs during racing may prevent me from becoming a fat burner but I'm yet to see definitive research on LCHF racing. I'm not referring to long/slow such as base rides (water only) but rather when the body is in the red zone. Can we cope without carbs then? I'm getting more info from Sport Science Institute which I will share.

[thatsme]

My 2c on a couple of things, in case it helps anyone. Sorry for the length, but if I only contribute once a year might as well:

 

Someone was complaining of nausea a while back? My experience - in my first week I had one day of horrible nausea, but it has never returned (6+ months on). Ditto with headache.

If it's because you're trying to up your fats and haven't figured out palatable ways yet - I made this mistake initially (well, as I think of it now) - just eat proper (but perhaps richer than before) food if you're struggling, don't try and eat straight up fat/oil added to things that wouldn't normally have it. I also find upping the acid element in the food makes increased fat less greasy feeling - e.g add a squeeze of lemon/ vinegar/ something like tomatoes.

 

Some things I find make this way of eating workable for me:

 

- frittata's - basically a good solid omellete with fillings. Tasty, transportable & easy to make ahead (e.g. for breakfast on the run/lunch) and you can put in anything you have at hand. Also helps if you're not keen on maxing out on meat and are socially acceptable to share with others (who might not want bullet-proof coffee

 

- eggs generally. Cheap, easy protein & fat, & more sustainable that meat.

 

- some good low carb 'sweet' recipes: I don't have to have snacks, but I like to, especially if it allows you to join in social eating (visitors/ after dinner treat with others). Some recipes below I find work ok - bearing in mind I don't really like very sweet things anyway. If you're okay with it you can add sugar substitutes. I don't, but sometimes add up to 2 tbs honey, or a grated or cooked mashed apple, to a whole batch of something to sweeten it slightly.

It becomes affordable if you find a good source of almonds or other nuts you can grind yourself into flour (coffee grinder works best, although perhaps a good blender would do the job) or butter (food processor best). I also make my own coconut milk & flour (more for interest because I like messing around in the kitchen, you can get by without)

 

- chickpea/chana/gram four: I only use it maybe once a month, but I like it because it's lower ch than wheat (~57 vs 75-80g/100) and more of that is fibre (so even less insulin affect I assume), it's gluten-free, & it's cheap and easy to use. It acts like an egg (binding - although you can still add eggs to reduce ch content more), so you can just mix it with water & use it as a base for fritters or wraps. Useful when catering for other people to make a 'starch' component you can also eat some of.

 

- slow-cooked stews. Someone else mentioned this too I think - you can use cheap, fairly fatty cuts of meat (pork is good, some great se asian-flavoured things out there), low maintenance and come out really tasty. A slow cooker or hot bag is useful for this.

 

- if you're in ct, the access park nut shop is the cheapest I've found (any other suggestion?). They also sell macadamia butter at a very good price.

 

If you're interested in cooking, some recipes I've found work for me,:

 

http://www.nomeatnom.com/2012/06/how-to-make-your-own-coconut-flour.html

 

http://slimpalate.com/brownie-bites-paleo-grain-free-gluten-free/

 

http://lmichellek.com/easiest-almond-flour-cookies/

 

http://www.charliefoundation.org/recipes/item/972-basic-muffins.html

( these ones ^ work best for me using only 100g butter. I also add a grated apple. Bake at ~150 rather otherwise oil tends to 'boil' out. Have become a staple)

 

http://www.healthhomehappy.com/2010/09/grain-free-crackers-made-with-sesame-and-sunflower-seeds.html

 

marinated aubergine (was good in the season): slice it & bake at 180 until cooked/ soft. Cut up to desired size & add vinaigrette of choice (google something that sounds good). Great for taking along to communal food events (braais/picnics etc) - everyone likes it. Add salad/ feta anything.

 

These look good too, although haven't tried them:

http://slimpalate.com/cauliflower-tortillas-paleo-grain-free-gluten-free/

 

Thanks for all the info everyone's sharing, cheers.

[htone]

For the Cape Town people - I buy most of my monthly stash of organic sausage from Rudi"s. If you contact them and ask them to add you to their mailer, you will get a mail every Thursday or Friday about the specials for that weekend. I can HIGHLY recommend their produce - The "Ollie Viljoen Boerewors" is a staple in my house ! Here's the mail for this week just so you can get an idea and skim the contact details (apologies for the length but it really contains a lot of info):

 

HI EVERYONE!!

 

Rudi’s selection for this Saturday 06 July 2013 at the Willowbridge Slow Market, Durbanville, Stellenbosch Slow Food Market, Oude Libertas Building, Earth Fair Market, Tokai and Rudi’s Deli, Firmoral Farm, Sir Lowry Road, Gordons Bay is as follows:-

(Please note that due to the large amount of e-mails that has to be sent, some will be received on Wednesdays, Thursdays and the other on Fridays)

 

DECLARATION: Rudi’s use only selected free-range beef, tested SA pork, Karoo lamb and organic venison in our products. Production is done under strict health conditions and no Water, Gluten, MSG, Soya or chemical Preservatives are added. Only natural beef, pig and sheep casings are used and all the spices are freshly ground from the raw to avoid nut and gluten contamination. Some recipes ask for wine, brandy or rum and the sausage will be clearly labelled as such. All other additional ingredients eg cheese, garlic or fresh herbs will be reflected in the label. When venison is used the label will reflect the specie used. All the above was, is and always will be the core reason for Rudi’s Deli’s establishment in 2008.

 

IMPORTANT: IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE THE MARKETS BEFORE 11AM AND YOU WOULD LIKE TO BUY SOME OF THE SPECIALS, PLEASE PHONE US AND WE WILL KEEP SOME ONE SIDE FOR YOU TO COLLECT. THERE IS LIMITED STOCK OF THE SPECIALS.

 

Our sausage can now also be ordered from and delivered by Fine Foods. See www.finefood.co.za.

 

STELLENBOSCH MARKET ONLY: Fresh Karoo Lamb will be sold every Saturday.

 

THIS WEEK’S SPECIALS:WILD AFRICA

Eland Sausage – Springbuck, Traditional Spices (Same as Ollies) (No Garlic)

Kudu - Traditional Spice and Red Wine Vinegar (No Garlic)

Spinach – Pork, Spinach, Pancetta, Garlic and White Wine

Dhania & Chilli – Pork, Fresh Dhania, Fresh Chilli, Lime Juice (No Garlic)

Bacon & Mustard – Pork, Bacon, Caramelised Onion, Nutmeg and Dijon Mustard (No Garlic)

Don Fiorenzo – Pork, Garlic Infused Red Wine, Crushed Black Pepper

Rudi’s Bratwurst – Pork, Marjoram, Nutmeg, Mace and Black Pepper (No Garlic)

Salsiccia Con Vino Bianco - Pork, Nutmeg, White Wine, black Pepper and Garlic

 

CLASSIC SELECTION (WEEKLY)

French Toulouse – Pork, Garlic, Herbs de Provence and white wine

Ollie’s Boerewors and Winddroog – Beef, Pork “Spek”, Roasted Spice, Thyme, Red Wine Vinegar

and Organic Worcester Sauce (60% beef, 40% pork). (No garlic)

Argentine Chorizo – Pork, Smoked Paprika, Bay Leaves, Lemon Zest, Garlic and Brandy

Sicilian Hot Italian – Pork, Fresh Chilli, Fresh Herbs, Garlic and Red wine

Italian Salsiccia – Pork, Fresh Fennel, Sage, Nutmeg, Lemon Zest, Garlic and Vermouth Wine

French Tarragon, Portobello Mushrooms, Dijon Mustard and Brandy, 100% Pork

 

DRY/CURED PRODUCTS

Zebra Salami – 50% Pork and Zebra, Mustard Seeds, Garlic and Rum and Smoked

Salpicao Anchovy – Pork, Anchovy, Paprika, Cayenne and Black Pepper, Garlic and Smoked

Spicy Kielbasa –Pork, Beef, Smoked Paprika, Chilli, Black Pepper, Marjoram, Paprika, Thyme Garlic and Smoked

Rudi’sKielbasa –Pork, Beef, Smoked Paprika, Black Pepper, Marjoram, Paprika, Thyme Garlic and Smoked

German Salami – 50% Pork and Beef, Mustard Seeds, Garlic and Smoked (No Fat)

Spanish Chorizo – Pork, Smoked Paprika, Red Wine and Garlic

 

SPECIALITY MEATS:

Eland Sirloin and Fillet.

14 Day Dry Aged Rib-eye Steaks and Rump

Pork Loin and Neck Steaks In Teriyaki Sauce with roasted Sesame Seeds.

Free Range Pork Chops

Cold Meat Variety Packs

Canadian bacon – 0% Preservatives and Nitrate Free, Low Salt and Oak Smoked (Back)

Green Bacon - 0% Preservatives and Nitrate Free, Low Salt and Unsmoked (Back)

Pancetta and Guanciale

 

If you would like to order any of the sausage for collection from the stalls, please phone Andrew (082 373 5224) for Earth Fair Market, Tokai, Willem for Stellenbosch (072 556 1701) and Wayne (082 874 9811) for Willowbridge or send us an e-mail to rudisdeli@telkomsa.net.

 

Kind Regards

Wayne Furno and Willem Viljoen

 

Rudi’s Sausage Deli

P O Box 1299

Gordons Bay

7151

[htone]

I had huge success on the Dukan Diet (one of Tim Noakes recommendations). I didn't exactly love the removal of fat and controlling of carbs BUT the combinations of graze you can come up with using yogurt and oat bran was incredible.

 

Being able to eat Oat Bran made the eating plan way easier (2-3 tablespoons per day) because you can make a pretty great pizza base, pancake, crumpet, muffin or my best Oat bran bread using eggs, cream cheese, yogurt and 3 tablespoons of oat bran.

 

Question

 

Although the carb content of oat bran seems pretty high (62g/100g or so) it seems that the actual digestible carbs are way lower. It also seems to be very good for the digestive system (not abrasive like wheat bran), traps calories as it travels through and even seems to slow down the effects of ingested carbs on the blood sugar (Lowers GI).

 

Do you feel incorporating a few tablespoons of this per day would really derail LCHF eating?

 

Just a word of caution on the "traps calories" part - I have yet to experience that

 

When you move to an LCHF way of eating, you are essentially very simply trying to restrict your carbs and fuelling yourself with fat (and a wee bit of protein). So in the bigger picture, as long as you keep your total daily carb intake to the level where it works for YOU, you can add oats, as it is a relatively low GI carb (depending on the level of processing). You can also add rice or potatoes in small quantities, but remember what you want to achieve is for your body to NOT send the "Stop the fat burning, start the fat storing" signal. In other words, you want to limit your body's insulin response to what you are eating. That's it, plain and simple. So some people can eat a bowl of oats and not enter fat storage mode (i.e. not have an insulin spike), while others (like myself with years of acquired carb intolerance) will spike insulin with anything like oats or mieliepap or similar.

 

Beyond this, you may want to benefit from the additional weight loss benefits of being in dietary ketosis, but to achieve that you would typically want to stay below a DAILY TOTAL carb intake of 50g. Again, this varies from person to person, but that's a rough guideline.

 

If you ingest the carbs during strenuous exercise, you may get away with a little more, as your body would typically then burn the carbs as preferential fuel and it should not add to the the cumulative carb number, but I have had days when it did - so you need to learn to understand your body's reaction to foods under specific circumstances. This is a long-term project and although you can learn a lot from what all the wise people on this thread are contributing, you will have to put yourself to the test to fully understand your own parameters. And that's the real fun part.

[Wet Ears]

My 2c on a couple of things, in case it helps anyone. Sorry for the length, but if I only contribute once a year might as well:

 

Someone was complaining of nausea a while back? My experience - in my first week I had one day of horrible nausea, but it has never returned (6+ months on). Ditto with headache.

If it's because you're trying to up your fats and haven't figured out palatable ways yet - I made this mistake initially (well, as I think of it now) - just eat proper (but perhaps richer than before) food if you're struggling, don't try and eat straight up fat/oil added to things that wouldn't normally have it. I also find upping the acid element in the food makes increased fat less greasy feeling - e.g add a squeeze of lemon/ vinegar/ something like tomatoes.

 

Some things I find make this way of eating workable for me:

 

- frittata's - basically a good solid omellete with fillings. Tasty, transportable & easy to make ahead (e.g. for breakfast on the run/lunch) and you can put in anything you have at hand. Also helps if you're not keen on maxing out on meat and are socially acceptable to share with others (who might not want bullet-proof coffee

 

- eggs generally. Cheap, easy protein & fat, & more sustainable that meat.

 

- some good low carb 'sweet' recipes: I don't have to have snacks, but I like to, especially if it allows you to join in social eating (visitors/ after dinner treat with others). Some recipes below I find work ok - bearing in mind I don't really like very sweet things anyway. If you're okay with it you can add sugar substitutes. I don't, but sometimes add up to 2 tbs honey, or a grated or cooked mashed apple, to a whole batch of something to sweeten it slightly.

It becomes affordable if you find a good source of almonds or other nuts you can grind yourself into flour (coffee grinder works best, although perhaps a good blender would do the job) or butter (food processor best). I also make my own coconut milk & flour (more for interest because I like messing around in the kitchen, you can get by without)

 

- chickpea/chana/gram four: I only use it maybe once a month, but I like it because it's lower ch than wheat (~57 vs 75-80g/100) and more of that is fibre (so even less insulin affect I assume), it's gluten-free, & it's cheap and easy to use. It acts like an egg (binding - although you can still add eggs to reduce ch content more), so you can just mix it with water & use it as a base for fritters or wraps. Useful when catering for other people to make a 'starch' component you can also eat some of.

 

- slow-cooked stews. Someone else mentioned this too I think - you can use cheap, fairly fatty cuts of meat (pork is good, some great se asian-flavoured things out there), low maintenance and come out really tasty. A slow cooker or hot bag is useful for this.

 

- if you're in ct, the access park nut shop is the cheapest I've found (any other suggestion?). They also sell macadamia butter at a very good price.

 

If you're interested in cooking, some recipes I've found work for me,:

 

http://www.nomeatnom.com/2012/06/how-to-make-your-own-coconut-flour.html

 

http://slimpalate.com/brownie-bites-paleo-grain-free-gluten-free/

 

http://lmichellek.com/easiest-almond-flour-cookies/

 

http://www.charliefoundation.org/recipes/item/972-basic-muffins.html

( these ones ^ work best for me using only 100g butter. I also add a grated apple. Bake at ~150 rather otherwise oil tends to 'boil' out. Have become a staple)

 

http://www.healthhomehappy.com/2010/09/grain-free-crackers-made-with-sesame-and-sunflower-seeds.html

 

marinated aubergine (was good in the season): slice it & bake at 180 until cooked/ soft. Cut up to desired size & add vinaigrette of choice (google something that sounds good). Great for taking along to communal food events (braais/picnics etc) - everyone likes it. Add salad/ feta anything.

 

These look good too, although haven't tried them:

http://slimpalate.com/cauliflower-tortillas-paleo-grain-free-gluten-free/

 

Thanks for all the info everyone's sharing, cheers.

 

Thanks for the info thatsme!

 

Is cocunut and almond flour easy to get your hands on? Assume you just need to go to a "health" store?