LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[htone]

Ok, so answer this:

1. How much carb do you eat for non-exercise purposes?

2. How much do you eat to support exercise?

 

Do you just eat carbs normally through the day, or do you eat low carb and then supplement with carbs during exercise?

 

This is intesesting. I like Dale's comment - maybe carb should be included for normal life and < 80% training, but above 80% additional carb?

 

I don't notice a huge difference in my training if I'm low carbing (but I'm probably at 50 - 80g) - but I train at low intensities, Maffetone style.

 

During racing, I now eat pretty much ad-lib. But only once well into the race. No pre-race carb loading.

 

Dave I think you have largely nailed it. Forget loading of any nutrient, just remain low carb, but if you feel that you need carbs, then add some once you have become active. I really think the timing of this is one of the most often missed points by cyclists, who tend to front-load, get the insulin spike as they start riding and then later complain that they have no legs.

 

The strange thing is, even in my own relatively low-intensity training environment, the group does sometimes pick up the pace and although I get tired at times (as in I am not fit enough) I have not had the need to supplement with carbs for at least the last 6 months. But I firmly believe this is because of how I forced my body to adapt and that it is the result of remaining fairly strictly low-carb throughout and effectively never "cheating", not even on the bike.

[DecarbDoc]

Hi

 

On an individual level, I dont think that there is any correct number of carbs below which constitutes LOW CARB.

 

Each one of us has an individual number of carbs that we can consume per day.

Going over this level results in fat deposition no matter who you are and how much you exercise. Essentially, when you go over your daily carb limit, your body has no metabolic alternative but to convert the excess into fat.

 

The leanest runner can get fat if he/she eats enough carbs.

 

The key is to find your individual level and the work with that number.

 

The question is how do you find that number?

 

It takes time. My method (for athletes who have a tendency to carry weight) is to drop daily intake of carbs to 25 grams. Then when some weight comes off, start adding back carbs until weight loss either stops or reverses. This would then be the approximate carb level that can be tolerated, without gaining weight.

[Roux 1]

Ok, so answer this:

1. How much carb do you eat for non-exercise purposes?

2. How much do you eat to support exercise?

 

Do you just eat carbs normally through the day, or do you eat low carb and then supplement with carbs during exercise?

 

This is intesesting. I like Dale's comment - maybe carb should be included for normal life and < 80% training, but above 80% additional carb?

 

I don't notice a huge difference in my training if I'm low carbing (but I'm probably at 50 - 80g) - but I train at low intensities, Maffetone style.

 

During racing, I now eat pretty much ad-lib. But only once well into the race. No pre-race carb loading.

 

1. Non exercise and Maffetone principal training: <50g-70g/day

2. Support Exercise:::::::: 100-150g/day. depending on schedule i.e. a high intensity session. Session where 80% + of max HR is needed for 3+ hours. Contemplating even 200g now and again.

 

 

Note that most of my sessions are in the morning depleted. Only drink coffee/cream/small amount of Numo for what that is worth.

[Roux 1]

Trained at +80% for extended periods ?

And have you kept on doing this for long enough - those are the questions that perhaps we should be asking !

I still believe this is achievable, it is just a matter of time and effort to allow the body to develop that "second engine".

 

I know you believe this.. did high volume training for 8 months No cheat days. Kept carbs low..I did eat fruit on some rides, and tested BG:: did not go over 5,5Mmol/L added intensity for 2 months. --- it just caught up with me.

[davetapson]

Hi

 

On an individual level, I dont think that there is any correct number of carbs below which constitutes LOW CARB.

 

Each one of us has an individual number of carbs that we can consume per day.

Going over this level results in fat deposition no matter who you are and how much you exercise. Essentially, when you go over your daily carb limit, your body has no metabolic alternative but to convert the excess into fat.

 

The leanest runner can get fat if he/she eats enough carbs.

 

The key is to find your individual level and the work with that number.

 

The question is how do you find that number?

 

It takes time. My method (for athletes who have a tendency to carry weight) is to drop daily intake of carbs to 25 grams. Then when some weight comes off, start adding back carbs until weight loss either stops or reverses. This would then be the approximate carb level that can be tolerated, without gaining weight.

 

A real doctor on this thread! That's going to confuse the hell out of us...

 

Welcome to the madhouse...

[DomJBo]

Good summery Dave.....

• I copied this thread from the start on word and it is 1500+ pages. So Dave register copy rights on
  

Cheers

 

Roux1 please tell me that word document that you have is all the posts from the new thread? Pretty please with sugar coconut oil on top could you send it to me. Dying for an offline version for the first 95 or so pages..

 

Week 1 was a week without cream (but still had yoghurt as desert) and Week 2 was as described above, only minimal milk.

 

Conclusion after 2 weeks of “dieting on dairy” – in my case that made zero difference, I have remained completely weight stable and thus I will be reintroducing both cream and yoghurt. I would normally see a change in weight by about day 3 or 4 when I fiddle with other parameters.

 

This has been quite surprising – I know that I have an insulin/BG reaction to milk when I consume about 300ml or more at a time and I thought that the same would be true for cream but it is not – as cream has a higher fat content and less lactose than milk.

 

Namaste.

H

 

Htone, just something I thought about over the past few days (I'm busy studying for for the most exciting time of one's life - year end exams and my mind tends to wonder a little) have you tried experimenting with lactose free versions of diary products as opposed to the normal versions. For example lactose free milk as opposed to normal (this is probably a bad example as you don't use much milk) I have now recently seen and tasted the lactose free yogurt from Woolies and it's not bad considering I haven't had yogurt in a few years

 

I'm drawing a bit of a conclusion here, but his comment was something like 'I don't believe that there is ever reason to eat > 200g of carbs a day'. My memory is fallible so no guarantees...

 

It was not in the context of exercise so I assume that it was in the context of 'even if you are carb tolerant, it is probably unlikely that you would ever need to eat more than 200g of carbs a day'.

 

Noakes himself is pretty hardcore (50g?) due to his carb intolerance.

 

Something Tim Noakes mentioned in his lecture is that an individual may not necessarily be carb intolerant to the extent that others are and hence we can all accommodate different carb thresholds. In Tim (and htone's case) they both have had extreme experiences to warrant the extremely low carbs they have. Whereas others such as HappyMartin has probably more than double this and is perfectly happy doing this.

 

I've been high carbing it for almost two solid years now, given to me by a dietician, and I feel much better than I did before when I was eating anything in sight. But it may seem like it's time for a change. But I still have some research and costings to do before I make such a radical decision.

 

I still believe this is achievable, it is just a matter of time and effort to allow the body to develop that "second engine".

 

I would still like to set up an informal "exercise group" where we can collectively train under VLC conditions for extended periods... and have mutual support in the process.

 

So htone, I'm almost going to put my head on a block here and say that I'm willing to be a test subject. I just need to overcome a few obstacles before the end of the year but it might just be a slow process so when the new year comes I hit the ground running.

 

I'm considering working from the ground upwards, new training, new food - this is obviously that it all remains manageable and cost effective.

 

A few aspects I need to consider and research a bit about though:

 

1. How on earth can I achieve the fat levels required without diary (or rather lactose). I am extremely lactose intolerant so a lot of the fat sources you guys use are not even an option for me. However I may have read something recently that may have made it slightly more attainable.

 

2. I need to go and read and understand Phil Maffetone's method and structure behind his training before I go out and just start riding slowly. At this stage I'm probably in the best cycling form I've ever been in and it is going to be a lot for me to swallow if I lose it.

 

Oh btw Welcome to the DeCarb Doc, first post in the LCHF thread, I'm convinced he was inspired to join us because of this thread!

[htone]

 

I know you believe this.. did high volume training for 8 months No cheat days. Kept carbs low..I did eat fruit on some rides, and tested BG:: did not go over 5,5Mmol/L added intensity for 2 months. --- it just caught up with me.

 

I am really keeping a keen eye on SSI and what they are busy doing - I suspect that we will be getting some surprising results from their current research. I know what I say is based on the theory in my own head, but I really feel that given enough time, our bodies should be able to adapt to generate Glycogen from fat at more optimal rates. I hope that with enough time on my side I will be able to prove this

[Roux 1]

Roux1 please tell me that word document that you have is all the posts from the new thread? Pretty please with sugar coconut oil on top could you send it to me. Dying for an offline version for the first 95 or so pages..

 

 

It is everything: from the start.. We can make plan if you want it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:

[htone]

 

Htone, just something I thought about over the past few days (I'm busy studying for for the most exciting time of one's life - year end exams and my mind tends to wonder a little) have you tried experimenting with lactose free versions of diary products as opposed to the normal versions. For example lactose free milk as opposed to normal (this is probably a bad example as you don't use much milk) I have now recently seen and tasted the lactose free yogurt from Woolies and it's not bad considering I haven't had yogurt in a few years

 

So htone, I'm almost going to put my head on a block here and say that I'm willing to be a test subject. I just need to overcome a few obstacles before the end of the year but it might just be a slow process so when the new year comes I hit the ground running.

 

I'm considering working from the ground upwards, new training, new food - this is obviously that it all remains manageable and cost effective.

 

A few aspects I need to consider and research a bit about though:

 

1. How on earth can I achieve the fat levels required without diary (or rather lactose). I am extremely lactose intolerant so a lot of the fat sources you guys use are not even an option for me. However I may have read something recently that may have made it slightly more attainable.

 

2. I need to go and read and understand Phil Maffetone's method and structure behind his training before I go out and just start riding slowly. At this stage I'm probably in the best cycling form I've ever been in and it is going to be a lot for me to swallow if I lose it.

 

Oh btw Welcome to the DeCarb Doc, first post in the LCHF thread, I'm convinced he was inspired to join us because of this thread!

 

Never tried lactose free milk, as I am not lactose intolerant, just carb intolerant and hence my reaction to anything vaguely resembling any kind of sugar... I don't think I will ever go the lactose-free route, as that would constitute a modified food in my mind, so I would rather just eliminate milk altogether (if that ever became necessary).

 

Your 2 questions:

 

1. Coconut oil. That should be your primary source of good fats. Add to that butter (which has no lactose), lard, fat on meat like lamb chops, olive oil over your salads and veggies (and with balsamic vinegar it is the bomb on top of those already fatty lamb chops) and your fat intake is sorted. Go back to the start of the tread and you will see that I battled with exactly this question and that is where the fatshake was borne from. I get the bulk of my fat for the day from that shake so I simply don't have to worry about fat for the rest of the day.

 

2. You cannot go wrong with Maffetone, but if you need to train now before you have read the book, just try to keep your average HR below 140. When you have the time and resources, go for a full VO2Max test, that will show you exactly where your lactic threshold is and you can then incorporate that into your training. It is very difficult to keep your HR low all the time when you cycle (as you probably know from having to ascend any kind of hill), so I am watching my average HR rather than focusing on the instantaneous HR, resulting in a much more controlled riding experience, as I can then taper off or pick up the pace later depending on that average reading.

 

I am so looking forward to you trying this. Just remember to keep good stats and to take pictures now and during the process, it is a constant source of inspiration if you can look back and actually see what you have achieved visually (apart from the stats that will speak for themselves). Stay calm and don't get over-eager. This is a slow process which takes months and not just weeks and you really have to allow time for the muscular adaptation to happen. Patience is almost a prerequisite !

[htone]

Hi

 

On an individual level, I dont think that there is any correct number of carbs below which constitutes LOW CARB.

 

Each one of us has an individual number of carbs that we can consume per day.

Going over this level results in fat deposition no matter who you are and how much you exercise. Essentially, when you go over your daily carb limit, your body has no metabolic alternative but to convert the excess into fat.

 

The leanest runner can get fat if he/she eats enough carbs.

 

The key is to find your individual level and the work with that number.

 

The question is how do you find that number?

 

It takes time. My method (for athletes who have a tendency to carry weight) is to drop daily intake of carbs to 25 grams. Then when some weight comes off, start adding back carbs until weight loss either stops or reverses. This would then be the approximate carb level that can be tolerated, without gaining weight.

 

Welcome to the most awesome thread on The Hub. Thanks for the early contribution and here's hoping for many more !

You are not the only medical professional on here, there are a few lurkers that I know about, so maybe your contribution will spark some discussion from the "fraternity".

[DomJBo]

Never tried lactose free milk, as I am not lactose intolerant, just carb intolerant and hence my reaction to anything vaguely resembling any kind of sugar... I don't think I will ever go the lactose-free route, as that would constitute a modified food in my mind, so I would rather just eliminate milk altogether (if that ever became necessary).

 

Your 2 questions:

 

1. Coconut oil. That should be your primary source of good fats. Add to that butter (which has no lactose), lard, fat on meat like lamb chops, olive oil over your salads and veggies (and with balsamic vinegar it is the bomb on top of those already fatty lamb chops) and your fat intake is sorted. Go back to the start of the tread and you will see that I battled with exactly this question and that is where the fatshake was borne from. I get the bulk of my fat for the day from that shake so I simply don't have to worry about fat for the rest of the day.

 

2. You cannot go wrong with Maffetone, but if you need to train now before you have read the book, just try to keep your average HR below 140. When you have the time and resources, go for a full VO2Max test, that will show you exactly where your lactic threshold is and you can then incorporate that into your training. It is very difficult to keep your HR low all the time when you cycle (as you probably know from having to ascend any kind of hill), so I am watching my average HR rather than focusing on the instantaneous HR, resulting in a much more controlled riding experience, as I can then taper off or pick up the pace later depending on that average reading.

 

I am so looking forward to you trying this. Just remember to keep good stats and to take pictures now and during the process, it is a constant source of inspiration if you can look back and actually see what you have achieved visually (apart from the stats that will speak for themselves). Stay calm and don't get over-eager. This is a slow process which takes months and not just weeks and you really have to allow time for the muscular adaptation to happen. Patience is almost a prerequisite !

 

Also true re modified lactose foodstuffs, never looked at it from that perspective. For me it just became do or die pretty much. A useless friday tip though. The older & harder a cheese is the less lactose content it contains. So a cheese like Parmesan (not the ground up processed stuff) has almost no lactose in it do to the enzymes in the diary consuming the sugars over a period of time. Hence why I can enjoy Parmesan over my pasta.

 

I have taken notice of that. This is a huge adaption for me though as I need to convince the grocery shopper (Dad) that this isn't going to break his bank and everyone else in the family needs to accept it (every meal had carbs in it because of me - I have become so heavily reliant on the things). I almost feel like Noakes here...

 

Then from cutting off the fat on my steak and convincing my step father to do the same because it is "unhealthy" now to a complete turn-around... "Could I please have the fattiest piece of steak in the kitchen?"

I have also never had a full cup of coffee in my life (only 20 so not an eternity) as caffeine keeps me awake for days.

 

This would not be an instant thing for me Htone, if this works for me and I can burn fuel as fat, when I get to do IMSA in 5 years time I should do pretty well as a fat burning machine by then. At the moment my training is to just get me out of the house and away from the books as an escape, so it is far from anything serious and hence I'm sure I can sacrifice a little to gain a lot in the future. It is just always fun to train half the amount of my old man and still keep up with him.

[Cuppa Bru]

Htone, great to hear your thyroid levels aren't in the bin.

Please share your numbers with us.

[htone]

Htone, great to hear your thyroid levels aren't in the bin.

Please share your numbers with us.

 

Not handy right now, but will post when I lay may hands on it again.

[Leon Besaans]

A few aspects I need to consider and research a bit about though:

 

1. How on earth can I achieve the fat levels required without diary (or rather lactose). I am extremely lactose intolerant so a lot of the fat sources you guys use are not even an option for me. However I may have read something recently that may have made it slightly more attainable.

 

 

 

Coconut oil, Macadamia nut butter, almonds, olive oil, butter, ghee, avo's, sardines in virgin olive oil, The list is endless, problem is our internal computer is programmed not to see the fats but rather the carbs, you need to reverse that and then you fine. Oh, and don't forget the fatty cold water fish either, good source of omega 3 which you need.

 

Good luck on the budget thing.

 

PS, Picked up some free range botswana rib eye steaks at Foodlovers today… can't wait to try those baby's.

 

Regards

Edited November 9, 2013 by Leon Besaans

[Topwine]

Some further studies demonstrating the beneficial effect of fruit, especially Orange Juice.

 

 

Orange Juice or Fructose Intake Does Not Induce Oxidative and Inflammatory Response

 

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/30/6/1406.long

 

CONCLUSIONS—Caloric intake in the form of orange juice or fructose does not induce either oxidative or inflammatory stress, possibly due to its flavonoids content and might, therefore, represent a potentially safe energy source.

 

 

Orange juice neutralizes the proinflammatory effect of a high-fat, high-carbohydrate meal and prevents endotoxin increase and Toll-like receptor expression

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2844681/

 

DISCUSSION

 

Our data show, for the first time to our knowledge, that the intake of orange juice with an HFHC meal prevented the marked increases in ROS generation and other inflammatory indexes, which occurred after the intake of the HFHC meal in combination with water or a glucose drink.

[jcza]

I am really keeping a keen eye on SSI and what they are busy doing - I suspect that we will be getting some surprising results from their current research. I know what I say is based on the theory in my own head, but I really feel that given enough time, our bodies should be able to adapt to generate Glycogen from fat at more optimal rates. I hope that with enough time on my side I will be able to prove this

 

This is what I want to know!