LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[DaleE]

Dale, I did a year or so of Maff style training and it gave me awesome low intensity endurance. But I really have no high intensity endurance now. I think Maff style training requires a hard racing season and the early session ramps you up intensity wise. I never got there.

 

 

Thanks Dave.

Did you do the MAF test on a regular basis? was there much improvement over the year? and if so, was it linear, or did you hit a plateau?

My plan is to be really strict about this for July, Aug, Sept then mix some intensity (anaerobic) stuff in during Oct and be ready for Wines2Whales, Double Centuary, Burger, Desert Dash in Nov/Dec.

If the results are good, I'll go back to aerobic for Jan/Feb then ramp up again for Argus and TransKaroo next year.

 

My main focus is Desert Dash and TransKaroo, hence the desire to be able to operate aerobically at a higher level.

 

Easy to plan ... now to implement

[Helpmytrap]

...

My main focus is Desert Dash and TransKaroo, hence the desire to be able to operate aerobically at a higher level.

...

 

Awesome, are you riding it solo, 2 man or 4 man?

[DaleE]

Awesome, are you riding it solo, 2 man or 4 man?

 

Solo

You doing / done it ?

[Helpmytrap]

Solo

You doing / done it ?

I rode solo last year. It hurt, A LOT!

 

Piece of advice, don't do it on a HT.

[jcza]

Also keen to do Desert Dash this year.

 

On another note, decided to experiment on Saturday at pre-Argus warm-up race (118km road race). Instead of usual cup of coffee and some muffins/rolls I had scrambled eggs and butter. Was painful, no power for about 40km. Had a gel and felt slightly better. Needless to say bunch was up the road. Which leads me to believe that even as a fat burner we need carbs (fully stocked glycogen stores). I've been experimenting for more than a year and still cannot go fast no-carb. Training rides yes, racing no.

[V12man]

Also keen to do Desert Dash this year.

 

On another note, decided to experiment on Saturday at pre-Argus warm-up race (118km road race). Instead of usual cup of coffee and some muffins/rolls I had scrambled eggs and butter. Was painful, no power for about 40km. Had a gel and felt slightly better. Needless to say bunch was up the road. Which leads me to believe that even as a fat burner we need carbs (fully stocked glycogen stores). I've been experimenting for more than a year and still cannot go fast no-carb. Training rides yes, racing no.

 

Best performance is when racing on carbs - FULLY carbo loaded too if the race is over 2 hours but that is not the way to live....

[Helpmytrap]

Best performance is when racing on carbs - FULLY carbo loaded too if the race is over 2 hours but that is not the way to live....

I was thinking the other day that maybe this is where carbo loading originated. Studies were conducted on athletes which were on diets that would be labelled as "carb restricted" in modern dietary guidelines. Thus when an athlete topped up their stores to 100% or there about by carbo loading on a carb restricted diet, they experienced optimal performance as a result. And things may have escalated from there on (as far as sport and nutrition is concerned wrt high CHO diets.)

This probably isn't exactly the case though.

 

So in my opinion, carbo loading does work iff (if and only if) you are on a diet with <150-200g CHO and you are carbo loading on produce such as sweet potatoes, squashes, fruit etc.

This obviously doesn't quite apply to those on ketogenic diets.

 

EDIT: made it less vague.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Helpmytrap

[McD23]

Also keen to do Desert Dash this year.

 

On another note, decided to experiment on Saturday at pre-Argus warm-up race (118km road race). Instead of usual cup of coffee and some muffins/rolls I had scrambled eggs and butter. Was painful, no power for about 40km. Had a gel and felt slightly better. Needless to say bunch was up the road. Which leads me to believe that even as a fat burner we need carbs (fully stocked glycogen stores). I've been experimenting for more than a year and still cannot go fast no-carb. Training rides yes, racing no.

Have also been LCHF for over a year,

My method is simple and works for ME...fuel to race, ie a shovel banana,potato, energy drink and lately Gu's when in race, even started with carb breakfast now.

Outside back to LCHF.

[V12man]

 

So in my opinion, carbo loading does work iff (if and only if) you are on a diet with <150-200g CHO and you are carbo loading on produce such as sweet potatoes, squashes, fruit etc.

This obviously doesn't quite apply to those on ketogenic diets.

 

 

Carbo loading does work, even if you are eating 70% plus calories from carbs - BUT - its a temporary thing - so for example in a multi day race, then it will work for day 1, but almost impossible to re-instate in time for day 2.

 

I am not suggesting that anyone move away from their chosen diet to a high carb diet as a way of life, but if you want max performance at a 1 day event like the Argus, then carbo loading is for you (starting tomorrow in the case of the Argus), and once the event is over, you go straight back on your normal diet.

 

There have been a number of studies done on the effectivity of carb depletion diets/phases before carbo loading, but the bottom line is it seems to make almost no difference to the amount of muscle glycogen stored after proper carb loading ( and you can't just eat a little more carbs to carbo load, has to be a LOT more) and you must of course use carbs during the event.

 

And of course - the better trained you are, the incremental performance improvement reduces - but it is always there.

[jcza]

Carbo loading does work, even if you are eating 70% plus calories from carbs - BUT - its a temporary thing - so for example in a multi day race, then it will work for day 1, but almost impossible to re-instate in time for day 2.

 

I am not suggesting that anyone move away from their chosen diet to a high carb diet as a way of life, but if you want max performance at a 1 day event like the Argus, then carbo loading is for you (starting tomorrow in the case of the Argus), and once the event is over, you go straight back on your normal diet.

 

There have been a number of studies done on the effectivity of carb depletion diets/phases before carbo loading, but the bottom line is it seems to make almost no difference to the amount of muscle glycogen stored after proper carb loading ( and you can't just eat a little more carbs to carbo load, has to be a LOT more) and you must of course use carbs during the event.

 

And of course - the better trained you are, the incremental performance improvement reduces - but it is always there.

 

V12 the following is my understanding of glycogen stores and depletion

 

During exercise carbohydrates with the highest possible rate of conversion to blood glucose per time (high glycemic index) must be ingested continuously. The best possible outcome of this strategy replaces about 35% of glucose consumed at heart rates above about 80% of maximum, which means we will run out eventually and slow down.

 

Through endurance training adaptations and specialized regimens (e.g. fasted low-intensity endurance training), the body can condition type I muscle fibers to improve both fuel utilization efficiency and workload capacity to increase the percentage of fatty acids utilized as fuel, sparing carbohydrate use from all sources. We become more economical and can go further on less.

 

By consuming large quantities of carbohydrates after depleting glycogen stores as a result of exercise or diet, the body can increase storage capacity of intramuscular glycogen stores. In general, glycemic index of carbohydrate source doesn't matter since muscular insulin sensitivity is increased as a result of temporary glycogen depletion.

[V12man]

JCZA - V12 the following is my understanding of glycogen stores and depletion

 

During exercise carbohydrates with the highest possible rate of conversion to blood glucose per time (high glycemic index) must be ingested continuously. The best possible outcome of this strategy replaces about 35% of glucose consumed at heart rates above about 80% of maximum, which means we will run out eventually and slow down.

 

v12 - Ingesting carbohydrate while exercising just reduces the rate of intramuscular and liver glycogen depletion (you have glycogen stores essentially in the muscle and in the liver - there are others, but relatively speaking so small they can be ignored) - liver glycogen is metabolised to glucose in the liver, and transported to the muscle as you exercise via the bloodstream - the problem with providing energy to the muscle via the bloodstream is always about the RATE of use vs the rate of supply - essentially the muscle can use energy faster than you can supply it - so you want to achieve 2 things - 1 maximise energy supply to the muscle, and 2 maximise energy sources within the muscle (intramuscular glycogen) - and at a level of intensity of exercise where you are burning glucose as primary energy source, you will eventually run out of the ability to supply the muscle enough glucose to maintain the very high level of intensity - this is the point where you 'bonk' and suddenly slow down - slow down enough and/or keep/start ingesting fuel and you will recover to some extent, and your ability to raise the intensity goes up again.

 

JCZA - Through endurance training adaptations and specialized regimens (e.g. fasted low-intensity endurance training), the body can condition type I muscle fibers to improve both fuel utilization efficiency and workload capacity to increase the percentage of fatty acids utilized as fuel, sparing carbohydrate use from all sources. We become more economical and can go further on less.

 

V12 - firstly - your bodies preferred use of fuel type (carbohydrates/fats/proteins) largely depends on the intensity of exercise (with glucose being the preferred source of energy at higer levels of intensity) - it's always going to use all of them all the time, but the relative rate of use of carbs/fats/proteins is important - and in brief, what happens is when you train, then your body makes adaptations that increase your maximum intensity you are capable of working at - so for example if you can (untrained) sustain say 200w of workload for 3 hours untrained, and once trained can sustain say 300w of workload for 3 hours - then go racing (cycling) - so because of the nature of cycling (bunch racing with mechanical advantage of gearing etc), you work at the going intensity of the group of say 150w, then when you are untrained, you are working at a relative intensity of 150/200 =75%, but when you are trained, then you are working at a relative intensity of 150/300 = 50% (numbers are not real, just as an example)

 

So you (if I have explained well enough) you will see, that when untrained, you are using glucose at a higher rate than when you are trained because your relative intensity level drops because of the training effects. Thus if you say carbo load to the same level of intramuscular glycogen stores (assuming weight stays the same untrained or trained) then you have a fixed amount of glycogen in the body (and it's the same, untrained or trained) = so lets assume you have 100g of carbohydrate stored as glycogen (trained or untrained)

 

Because the rate of glucose usage is related to level of intensity then you will see that at 75% relative intensity, you run out of glucose (bonk) (because the rate of usage is faster the harder you go) earlier than the same person in a trained state who is working at 50% intensity.

 

So the question becomes - do you finish the race before you bonk (no problem), or do you bonk before the end of the race (BIG problem)

 

JCZA - By consuming large quantities of carbohydrates after depleting glycogen stores as a result of exercise or diet, the body can increase storage capacity of intramuscular glycogen stores.

 

V12 - The depletion phase to carbohydrate loading has essentially been proven unnecessary to achieve high levels of glycogen stores (higher than normal) given you follow a proper carbohydrate loading routine before a race.

 

Note - if you do carbo load properly, and then not race where the stores get used, your body will return your glycogen levels to 'normal' within a week or so - so high levels of glycogen stores are more transient than a permanent feature. I have not seen any studies which show that training enables a greater total store of carbohydrate than untrained (they may exist, but designing a study like that will be tricky to prove anything definitive given weight/body composition changes etc related to training)

 

 

JCZA - In general, glycemic index of carbohydrate source doesn't matter since muscular insulin sensitivity is increased as a result of temporary glycogen depletion.

 

V12 - GI is not really a factor during exercise when glucose can be transported across the muscle wall without the influence of insulin - what is important is maximising the quantity of carbohydrate absorbed - thus the use of longer chain carbohydrates is better in your bottle than shorter chain, because you absorb more glucose in total per hour than the simple carbohydrates. Obviously this doesn't matter if you are working at such a low level of intensity that you can supply enough energy via the simple carbs (and the difference while measurable is fairly low (10 - 20% from memory)

 

A confusing factor is the influence of simple vs long chain carbohydrates on gastric emptying as well.... with glucose relatively reducing gastric emptying compared to longer chain carbs - it becomes a question at some point of what is more important - fluid or carbs..... and that can also be situational..

[Titanium Rocket]

I read this thread with interest every day, but I am not a scientist and the physiology is way beyond my simple agricultural brain. I am a small bloke, +/-10% body fat, and currently do not participate in the LCHF movement simply becuase I'm so skraal and eat what I can, whenever I can...weight never ever been an issue...in fact, probably dont eat enough. In my own non-scientific way, I like to think I'm a fussy eater, I dont eat cr*p, and I aim at a 'balanced diet'.

 

Can you guys please help:

• I have done MANY multiday stage races. Typically, I'm fine on Days 1 and 2....but then on Day 3, the wheels come off and I am absolutely flat. Heart rate won't get going, and there's just no power in the tank.
  
• Can't tell you how often this has happened in the last 10 years.
  
• The last few posts seem to be telling me something, but any idea what I could be doing wrong? Or what I should be doing...??
  

[V12man]

I read this thread with interest every day, but I am not a scientist and the physiology is way beyond my simple agricultural brain. I am a small bloke, +/-10% body fat, and currently do not participate in the LCHF movement simply becuase I'm so skraal and eat what I can, whenever I can...weight never ever been an issue...in fact, probably dont eat enough. In my own non-scientific way, I like to think I'm a fussy eater, I dont eat cr*p, and I aim at a 'balanced diet'.

 

Can you guys please help:

• I have done MANY multiday stage races. Typically, I'm fine on Days 1 and 2....but then on Day 3, the wheels come off and I am absolutely flat. Heart rate won't get going, and there's just no power in the tank.
  
• Can't tell you how often this has happened in the last 10 years.
  
• The last few posts seem to be telling me something, but any idea what I could be doing wrong? Or what I should be doing...??
  

 

Easy - you don't eat ENOUGH during the ride and during the event - you cannot eat enough to cover the energy deficit on a multi day.

 

But I do have a question - left field - do you take anti inflammatories during the ride - for injury or recovery reasons?

[eddy]

My wife and I have decided to give the Noakes diet a bash and so far, so good although I may increase my Carb intake for Argus.

 

One aspect I have not yet established is what the regime has to say about alcohol. The book says beer is out of the question and I understand why.

 

Can I have wine, red and white ? What about whisky ? if allowed, how much is too much ?

 

Thanks

[DaleE]

My wife and I have decided to give the Noakes diet a bash and so far, so good although I may increase my Carb intake for Argus.

One aspect I have not yet established is what the regime has to say about alcohol. The book says beer is out of the question and I understand why.

Can I have wine, red and white ? What about whisky ? if allowed, how much is too much ?

Thanks

 

There's no definitive answer on alcohol and LCHF, but here are some general guidelines:

1. Red wine has less carbs than white or champagne

2. Distilled spirits like whisky are good choices (low in sugar)

3. Some folk believe alcohol is an inhibitor to weight loss (if that is your aim). My experience is that 1 glass of red wine or whisky daily makes no difference to weight loss.

4. I have a cardiologist who insists on a glass of red at least every 2 days. Says the therapeutic effects for the heart are amazing - something to do with the melatonin IIRC.

5. How much to drink depends on you. I find if I drink too much (>3 whiskeys or >half bottle red) at a party, etc, I end up eating too much too. Not sure why, perhaps just bad habits.

[Titanium Rocket]

Thanks V12man. I believe you've said what I already suspect:

1. Not enough food during the ride. I am a notoriously slow/poor/reluctant eater at the best of times, and worse under pressure during a race. So the tank is empty by Day 3, understandably.
   
2. This is further exacerbated by intensity: I have the ability to sustain >80% of MHR for 4+ hours on the first 2 days. Again, understandable why the wheels come off on Day 3...shut down time.
   
3. And yes - I do take anti-inflams during long rides. I have a very seriously buggered knee, now close to replacement time. But I am/was unaware that NSAIDs affect endurance? Good to know, thanks.