Your Enduro ride

[Bos]

For your Monday woes, I give you a challenge.

 

I am in a predicament: I had 2 "enduro" bikes. One hard tail (HT) and one full sus (FS). Now I only have one (the FS) and after riding the other, it feels like absolute crap.

 

The 3 main issues are:

1. In fast corners - I now seem to be weaving in and out, rather than just holding a consistent line.
2. On jumps, I'm tending to "dead sailor" a lot more than before.
3. general not-niceness. (technical term there for ya)

Now I put it to you guys to deduce the main antagonist, as there are many differences other than having or not having rear travel.

 

Rims:

HT: 30mm IW

FS: 21mm IW

 

same tires.

 

Bars:

HT: 800mm

FS: 760mm

 

Stem:

HT: 45mm

FS: 60mm

 

Fork:

HT: Fox34 Factory - 160mm - Boost

FS: RS Pike RCT3 - 160mm - non-boost

 

• Could it be just down to cockpit setup? So if I duplicate my HT setup I'd duplicate the results?
• Does rim IW make that much of a difference?
• Or could it be that I know absolutely nothing about suspension setup and I got lucky when tinkering with the 34?

*edit: Updated forks

 

Swap your wheels between bikes?  21 ID rims on a bike with a pike is sacrilege..!

 

And my second answer is...You're over thinking it. go ride. Or there might be something very wrong with your FS settup. HT's are definitely better to jump at a dirtjump settup, but hitting jumps at speed in the trails should be better on a FS. 

[Headshot]

For your Monday woes, I give you a challenge.

 

I am in a predicament: I had 2 "enduro" bikes. One hard tail (HT) and one full sus (FS). Now I only have one (the FS) and after riding the other, it feels like absolute crap.

 

The 3 main issues are:

1. In fast corners - I now seem to be weaving in and out, rather than just holding a consistent line.
2. On jumps, I'm tending to "dead sailor" a lot more than before.
3. general not-niceness. (technical term there for ya)

Now I put it to you guys to deduce the main antagonist, as there are many differences other than having or not having rear travel.

 

Rims:

HT: 30mm IW

FS: 21mm IW

 

same tires.

 

Bars:

HT: 800mm

FS: 760mm

 

Stem:

HT: 45mm

FS: 60mm

 

Fork:

HT: Fox34 Factory - 160mm - Boost

FS: RS Pike RCT3 - 160mm - non-boost

 

• Could it be just down to cockpit setup? So if I duplicate my HT setup I'd duplicate the results?
• Does rim IW make that much of a difference?
• Or could it be that I know absolutely nothing about suspension setup and I got lucky when tinkering with the 34?

*edit: Updated forks

The Pike should not be hard to sort out. I have the DPA 160 and have found that it actually requires far less air than the table on the leg recommends for my weight. 

 

I doubt the stem is an issue. I have a 70mm on my HT and have found that I got used to it very easily over the 50 it had before. 

 

The jumping issue sounds like rear shock and technique. Try slowing the rear rebound and see if that helps then work on your timing, remembering to make sure that as your rear wheel leaves the lip, your front wheel is higher than the rear. I have found that rotating my wrists backwards ie almost like twisting a throttle give the front wheel a nice kick skywards.  

[Alouette3]

I struggled a bit to get my Pike setup, but found the sweet spot after a couple rides. I'm about 10psi under the recommended setting.

 

Check how many tokens are fitted. Set pressure for good small bump performance, then add tokens to prevent bottoming out.

[Bos]

The Pike should not be hard to sort out. I have the DPA 160 and have found that it actually requires far less air than the table on the leg recommends for my weight. 

 

I doubt the stem is an issue. I have a 70mm on my HT and have found that I got used to it very easily over the 50 it had before. 

 

The jumping issue sounds like rear shock and technique. Try slowing the rear rebound and see if that helps then work on your timing, remembering to make sure that as your rear wheel leaves the lip, your front wheel is higher than the rear. I have found that rotating my wrists backwards ie almost like twisting a throttle give the front wheel a nice kick skywards.  

 

Some good advice here. Longer travel bikes are definitely very different to jump on steeper jumps especially. A hard tail is more predictable. With the FS, as the bike compresses through the apex of the jump it starts rebounding as you drive towards the lip, this is why your rear rebound should be slower than your front. The front wheel then leaves the lip while the rear is still busy rebounding, which can also "buck" the rider. Is that the right term? Call it nosedive...

 

I'm getting very technical here.  But the most important is to just go ride, practice makes perfect. Having said that, Body positioning / weight centering is one of the most important aspects when it comes to jumping. Make sure you're balanced & centered over your bars and you are not pedaling right up to the lip. A natural reflex action when hitting a jump when you're scared or unsure is to lean back. On a HT it will send you nose high into a dead sailor which you might land or might loop out of on the landing, but on the FS that rebound of the rear wheel will pop you straight over the bars since all your weight is on the back wheel. and your body weight will override whatever the bike does because its 10x more. 

 

Sorry to get technical here, I just went through the same thing learning to jump a FS after I use to DJ on a jump bike for many years.

[Duane_Bosch]

I struggled a bit to get my Pike setup, but found the sweet spot after a couple rides. I'm about 10psi under the recommended setting.

 

Check how many tokens are fitted. Set pressure for good small bump performance, then add tokens to prevent bottoming out.

What are your settings?

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Some good advice here. Longer travel bikes are definitely very different to jump on steeper jumps especially. A hard tail is more predictable. With the FS, as the bike compresses through the apex of the jump it starts rebounding as you drive towards the lip, this is why your rear rebound should be slower than your front. The front wheel then leaves the lip while the rear is still busy rebounding, which can also "buck" the rider. Is that the right term? Call it nosedive...

 

I'm getting very technical here.  But the most important is to just go ride, practice makes perfect. Having said that, Body positioning / weight centering is one of the most important aspects when it comes to jumping. Make sure you're balanced & centered over your bars and you are not pedaling right up to the lip. A natural reflex action when hitting a jump when you're scared or unsure is to lean back. On a HT it will send you nose high into a dead sailor which you might land or might loop out of on the landing, but on the FS that rebound of the rear wheel will pop you straight over the bars since all your weight is on the back wheel. and your body weight will override whatever the bike does because its 10x more. 

 

Sorry to get technical here, I just went through the same thing learning to jump a FS after I use to DJ on a jump bike for many years.

knowledge bomb, right here. 

[GrahamS2]

What are your settings?

I weigh 94 and mine is at 65psi with 2 tokens. Waaaayyyy lower than suggested.

[MarcBurger]

Seems the comments (however valid) got quite derailed. The essence of the post was that you don't know how bad your setup is, until you try a better one. and the quest to have a better overall setup with minimal input/change. It became more of a how-to DJ with a full sus.

Things like "just go ride your bike" are a bit of an irrelevant statement. When we're riding, we ride, we ride a lot. When we're working, we're thinking about riding, and talking about riding.

 

In a nutshell the best suggested solution was to start from scratch, now knowing how it should feel. Rather than just tweaking a bad initial setup. Then tweak things later. Will start with a potentially overdue shock service.

The cockpit will change slightly. The wheels wont.

 

Edit:

My current setup, give or take changes depending where I'm riding:

Weigh 85kg

Pike: 75psi (2 tokens), rebound 2 clicks towards faster

Rear: 30-32% sag: 1 click towards slower.

[Duane_Bosch]

I weigh 94 and mine is at 65psi with 2 tokens. Waaaayyyy lower than suggested.

on the 140mm pike?

 

I'm running 4 tokens at about 70psi. gonna probably settle on 3 tokens.

[Alouette3]

Pike is at 58-60psi, back up to 2 tokens. 69kg rider without kit.

 

SRAM website calculator recommends 70psi. Also discovered my pump was under reading by 10psi!!!! Explains why it felt hard as rocks.

 

I've also removed 3 of the 4 volume reducers from my Monarch at the back

[Headshot]

Seems the comments (however valid) got quite derailed. The essence of the post was that you don't know how bad your setup is, until you try a better one. and the quest to have a better overall setup with minimal input/change. It became more of a how-to DJ with a full sus.

Things like "just go ride your bike" are a bit of an irrelevant statement. When we're riding, we ride, we ride a lot. When we're working, we're thinking about riding, and talking about riding.

 

In a nutshell the best suggested solution was to start from scratch, now knowing how it should feel. Rather than just tweaking a bad initial setup. Then tweak things later. Will start with a potentially overdue shock service.

The cockpit will change slightly. The wheels wont.

 

Edit:

My current setup, give or take changes depending where I'm riding:

Weigh 85kg

Pike: 75psi (2 tokens), rebound 2 clicks towards faster

Rear: 30-32% sag: 1 click towards slower.

Sounded more like a cry for help because you were about to dead sailor yourself into oblivion on the next jump, to me, so we we just trying to save your life :-) 

 

Those fork shock settings are confusing me. Is the fork 2 clicks from full slow and the shock 1 click in the opposite direction from max rebound speed? 

 

If that's the case I'd say part of your problem is right there.  My general rule of thumb is faster rebound on the fork and slower out back. 

[GrahamS2]

on the 140mm pike?

 

I'm running 4 tokens at about 70psi. gonna probably settle on 3 tokens.

140 yes

[MarcBurger]

Appreciate the life saving

Honestly its the poor overall feel and cornering confidence that's off.

 

No clue how you understand rebound settings.

Settings are from neutral centre. So from the middle setting. -2(faster) and +1(slower) front and rear respectively.

Hence abiding by your rule of thumb.

Sounded more like a cry for help because you were about to dead sailor yourself into oblivion on the next jump, to me, so we we just trying to save your life :-) 

 

Those fork shock settings are confusing me. Is the fork 2 clicks from full slow and the shock 1 click in the opposite direction from max rebound speed? 

 

If that's the case I'd say part of your problem is right there.  My general rule of thumb is faster rebound on the fork and slower out back. 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Appreciate the life saving

Honestly its the poor overall feel and cornering confidence that's off.

 

No clue how you understand rebound settings.

Settings are from neutral centre. So from the middle setting. -2(faster) and +1(slower) front and rear respectively.

Hence abiding by your rule of thumb.

Except it isn't. Fork and shock rebound settings/ clicks are different and should be measured from full open or closed. Also, one click on the shock may equal 2 on the fork Ito outright change to oil flow so a simple measure of clicks may not result in an accurate measurement of rebound damping across the 2 shocks. . In isolation, yes. Compared to each other, not necessarily. There's also the range of "useful settings" which each suspension component has. Your +2/-1 may still result in a setting which has faster rebound on the rear than in the front.

 

It's good to first set to the middle setting and play from there, but it may be that the rebound is still too fast on the rear. It's time to play around with the settings and heed what advice Bos gave above.

[Bos]

Seems the comments (however valid) got quite derailed. The essence of the post was that you don't know how bad your setup is, until you try a better one. and the quest to have a better overall setup with minimal input/change. It became more of a how-to DJ with a full sus.

Things like "just go ride your bike" are a bit of an irrelevant statement. When we're riding, we ride, we ride a lot. When we're working, we're thinking about riding, and talking about riding.

 

In a nutshell the best suggested solution was to start from scratch, now knowing how it should feel. Rather than just tweaking a bad initial setup. Then tweak things later. Will start with a potentially overdue shock service.

The cockpit will change slightly. The wheels wont.

 

Edit:

My current setup, give or take changes depending where I'm riding:

Weigh 85kg

Pike: 75psi (2 tokens), rebound 2 clicks towards faster

Rear: 30-32% sag: 1 click towards slower.

Sorry mate.

I think you misunderstood. But if the shoe fits. I was explaining the difference between DJ with FS and DJ with HT. 

 

I agree with your comments (When we're working, we're thinking about riding, and talking about riding.) you should just go ride your bike.   

[Headshot]

On the set up topic I have had an interesting two weeks. My steel HT's Pike blew its damper after a fun loop from home to Rondebosch via Kirstenbosch.  So I rode my Enduro on the green belts. It felt awful. I had just spent a lot of time on my HT and the big bike felt like I was riding a water bed in comparison.  Back on  the repaired HT at Tokai I had the opposite experience. The bike felt too hard everywhere.

 

Some changes were needed to both bikes. The Enduro got a 10 psi shock pressure increase and some more air in the rear tyre. The HT got the fork air pressure reduced and the tyres made a tad softer. The changes made a huge difference to both bikes, especially the Enduro which suddenly pedaled way better even with the shock fully open and with fewer pedal strikes. The HT was back to being a little less uncomfortable than it had been. 

 

All this made me realise how important set up is, from a long travel bike to a HT. The issues arose because of laziness. Dont be lazy.

 

So which is faster. My last two rides on the same trail with different bikes were won by the HT on several Strava  DH segments. On mellower trails the HT can hold its own easily and can be faster. Tokai and properly rough tracks are a different story...