Bat Posted March 15, 2014 Share "Bat", Quite a reaction there (I'm assuming due to drugs kicking in) with some wild assumptions. I didn't read that in Swiss' post or tone and I couldn't agree more with him and KV. It's a pity there aren't more events who take the same stance as the Epic. Well I actually don't give a dam what you think. However you made me go and read SwissVan's post again, and yes maybe I did not read it correctly. Here I am referring to a nanny society where we are constantly being told how and what to do with regards to our health. I am against doping more specifically pro's or people doing races for recognition or money. If a tale ender want to stuff their life up or cheat just to beat their friend, then they must do so, and hopefully one day they will be found out and be put under the spotlight by those they betrayed. So to "SwissVan" I apologies, and to KV, accept my Epic entry and I might be more positive about you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoLefty!! Posted March 15, 2014 Share that would be double standards wouldn't it and then the Pro's would be able to contest their case in court that a amatuer gets off but they don't.Whether you're cheating your employer, sponsor, wife or best pal you're cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydude Posted March 15, 2014 Share Doping is a grey area, as is cheating. And you can't apply black and white rules to greay areas. Did you take the corner two meters early? That's cheating. Did you have cough syrup for your sore throat? That's doping. If they want to be as strict and ban for life all doping and cheating offenses then there would be no Epic riders left. As in law, your punishment should fit the crime. zuludog, Tankman and Tumbleweed 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baaisikilist Posted March 15, 2014 Share Clearly those two aren't hubbers or they'd have known what a *** idea that was. Thought for sure after that whole MTBaaisikilist fiasco people would take doping more seriously and not take chances/be so negligent. Looong drawn out lesson ahead of these lads. ngala24, EZRider, SwissVan and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassasdaindia Posted March 16, 2014 Share . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoLefty!! Posted March 16, 2014 Share Doping is a grey area, as is cheating. And you can't apply black and white rules to greay areas. Did you take the corner two meters early? That's cheating. Did you have cough syrup for your sore throat? That's doping. If they want to be as strict and ban for life all doping and cheating offenses then there would be no Epic riders left. As in law, your punishment should fit the crime. its not a grey area. If you're taking something for an ailment then report it. get a Doctors prescription or letter. I did this before the 2008 ACE and didn't have a problem. Part of teh condition of entry is a medical. You have plenty of time to declare everything including chronic medication or even stuff for sinusitis or even a common cold. There is no excuse to getting caught.Problem is SAFFA's have a K*K FU attitude so let these two twits burn. The rules are clear. If you're ignorant of the rules then where is the grey area? - likely lacking between the ears eddy and Thug 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJR Posted March 16, 2014 Share Doping is a grey area, as is cheating. And you can't apply black and white rules to greay areas. Did you take the corner two meters early? That's cheating. Did you have cough syrup for your sore throat? That's doping. If they want to be as strict and ban for life all doping and cheating offenses then there would be no Epic riders left. As in law, your punishment should fit the crime. The more "black or white rules" you apply, the narrower the "grey area" in between them will become! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TALUS Posted March 16, 2014 Share I will not get into a mudslinging contest around this argument. I will make a statement and if anyone agrees it is fine if not also. Life is not black and white. Case 1 (real life - 2014). Guy in car crash. After years of struggling his whole foot is made stiff with rods screws etc. to control pain and to make it possible to continue his work. Guy was a 3:10 Argus rider before. Operation is successful and the guy starts cycling. His mood and quality of life improves. A week before the Argus he slips and hurts tendons around his fused ankle. Cortisone injections alleviate the pain. Worker class man - no time/ money resources to apply for a TUE. Guy finishes in 6h. Very happy and doesnt feel "disabled" anymore. Yeah he is a doper and the sport really doesnt need him - ban him! Case 2: (2014) : A member of a small club that lives for cycling (arranging small races, running small starter groups - all for free) goes to Cape Town a week early for his annual holiday and Argus. Gets flu. No GP locally. Pharmacist treats him. He does a 3:40 which is his worst time ever. Comes back and finds out he used banned substances. He obviously is bad for cycling and benefitted greatly from doping. Spend money to catch him and ban him. Cheater. Case 3: A man thinks his car is being stolen. He shoots and kills his own daughter. The court considers all facts and does not put him in jail for life. Everybody agrees that this is fair. Life is not black and white. Edited March 16, 2014 by TALUS arendoog, Jocklaw, mazambaan and 6 others 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydude Posted March 16, 2014 Share its not a grey area. If you're taking something for an ailment then report it. get a Doctors prescription or letter. I did this before the 2008 ACE and didn't have a problem. Part of teh condition of entry is a medical. You have plenty of time to declare everything including chronic medication or even stuff for sinusitis or even a common cold. There is no excuse to getting caught.Problem is SAFFA's have a K*K FU attitude so let these two twits burn. The rules are clear. If you're ignorant of the rules then where is the grey area? - likely lacking between the ears The more "black or white rules" you apply, the narrower the "grey area" in between them will become! Do you also believe life is black and white? Should every crime be punished with a life in prison? Only in theory is this black and white, but practically it's grey. Can't find it now, but there was a study showing 25% of one manufacturer's supllements were contaminated with illegal substances. Boom, one quarter of fun riders doping. And did you know they make different batches of supplements for pros and the mass market? And no one can guarantee their supplement is clean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcza Posted March 16, 2014 Share Do you also believe life is black and white? Should every crime be punished with a life in prison? Only in theory is this black and white, but practically it's grey. Can't find it now, but there was a study showing 25% of one manufacturer's supllements were contaminated with illegal substances. Boom, one quarter of fun riders doping. And did you know they make different batches of supplements for pros and the mass market? And no one can guarantee their supplement is clean? I think Sponser guarantees that their products are clean. Cadence might do the same but I'm not 100% sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJR Posted March 16, 2014 Share ..................... Only in theory is this black and white, but practically it's grey. .................. I very much agree with you, but I also believe that for the good of cycling we should attempt to narrow down that doping grey area between the black and white. A grey area might well remain forever, but accepting it as a wide open festering wound in the middle of our sports' face is just plain wrong. Applying the rules strictly and consistently to all will contribute to narrowing the uncertainty between right and wrong, that is what I want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydude Posted March 16, 2014 Share I very much agree with you, but I also believe that for the good of cycling we should attempt to narrow down that doping grey area between the black and white. A grey area might well remain forever, but accepting it as a wide open festering wound in the middle of our sports' face is just plain wrong. Applying the rules strictly and consistently to all will contribute to narrowing the uncertainty between right and wrong, that is what I want. I agree with you completely and don't get me wrong, I'm completely against doping. But you have to be realistic. Obviously steroids and EPO are blatant cheating to get an advantage, but cough syrup or contaminated supplements with some or other obscure element with no performance enhancing capability? We probably can't have different rules for pros and amateurs, but on the other hand it is difficult to treat them the same and to the same standards. For one it is his job, the other his hobby. The one has a manager and team and resources, the other basically nothing except the internet and the hub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooToo Posted March 16, 2014 Share Most of the over the counter "flu" like symptoms medication are only banned in competition, and then you would need to knock back a whole bottle of Vicks Med Nite the morning of the race to test positive. Have you every tired to cycle drunk? Amazing how those caught have always got a valid excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydude Posted March 16, 2014 Share It's not excuses, MooToo. It's called reality. Read my posts again. I would venture that 99% of pros and amateurs have 'doped' or 'cheated' if you want to enforce the rules as strict as it was written. Why can teams get outside assistance last year, wheel one day and rain jackets the other, when it's against the rules and they know it. Slapped with a small time penalty. Another rule gets broken, life time ban. No consistency. TALUS and Bat 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLuvsMtb Posted March 16, 2014 Share It's not excuses, MooToo. It's called reality. Read my posts again. I would venture that 99% of pros and amateurs have 'doped' or 'cheated' if you want to enforce the rules as strict as it was written. Why can teams get outside assistance last year, wheel one day and rain jackets the other, when it's against the rules and they know it. Slapped with a small time penalty. Another rule gets broken, life time ban. No consistency.Are you saying that stealing a loaf of bread is the same as hijacking a armored cash in transit van? arendoog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caerus Posted March 16, 2014 Share Are you saying that stealing a loaf of bread is the same as hijacking a armored cash in transit van?Either way it's theft, no sugar coating will change the fact. One by force the another not, still stealing, innit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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