FTP - whats yours?

[usxorf]

The reason for your point #2 might be that W' is one system (of many) that plays a role in fatigue. By riding for one hour under CP you're fatiguing something else.

[Ryinc]

The reason for your point #2 might be that W' is one system (of many) that plays a role in fatigue. By riding for one hour under CP you're fatiguing something else.

Thats precisely the point. W'/critical power theory doesn't seem to adequately allow for these types of issues - i.e. the size of the "battery" (w') or when the battery starts being used (i.e when power > critical power) are surely dependendent on how tired you are from training in the last week (say short term stress), how tired you are from the ride you are busy doing (say total TSS or similar in the ride so far?) And say how tired you are from the efforts made in the last (say) 20 minutes. If it doesn't allow for this type of complexity how valuable will it/can it be then in racing? On the flip side, it would be extremely difficult to allow for it, and parameterise correctly at an individual level.

 

Its certainly intersesting but not sure of application just yet.

[Spinnekop]

interesting discussion.......

Both trainingpeaks and Golden Cheetah uses FRC or W'.

So there must be some sort of value in it.

 

As for racing.

I thing the assumption will be that you enter a RACE (remember overseas this happens like once or twice in a season) with a close to full "battery".

Also the W' calculation is based upon your best 20min and you 3min avg watts.

So if you want to technically correct on your W' figure, you'll have to do a FTP (20min) and 3min test in order to have the correct W' value.  Doing that type of thing right before a race might not be the best idea. 

I do mine once a month.  It is as close as it is going to get.

 

With that in mind, when you are tired, you wont have good 20min and 3min values.  So you'll have a low W'. 

 

I also see that, for instance, in a time trial, this is going to help a bit.  You'll be able to push over your FTP value until you see you are close to zero.  That way you know you gave it all.

You moment your W' figure goes up, it means you are below FTP and busy "recovering"

 

Time Trial graph.

You can see the "recovery" during the twists and turns around Bombela stadium.  The rest is just burn burn burn.

 

 

 

How this info is going to help during future racing......?  I don't know. 

This it seems is still a "new" science and it should be interesting to see what info is going to be useful.....

 

 

 

 

[Ryinc]

interesting discussion.......

Both trainingpeaks and Golden Cheetah uses FRC or W'.

So there must be some sort of value in it.

 

As for racing.

I thing the assumption will be that you enter a RACE (remember overseas this happens like once or twice in a season) with a close to full "battery".

Also the W' calculation is based upon your best 20min and you 3min avg watts.

So if you want to technically correct on your W' figure, you'll have to do a FTP (20min) and 3min test in order to have the correct W' value.  Doing that type of thing right before a race might not be the best idea. 

I do mine once a month.  It is as close as it is going to get.

 

With that in mind, when you are tired, you wont have good 20min and 3min values.  So you'll have a low W'. 

 

I also see that, for instance, in a time trial, this is going to help a bit.  You'll be able to push over your FTP value until you see you are close to zero.  That way you know you gave it all.

You moment your W' figure goes up, it means you are below FTP and busy "recovering"

 

Time Trial graph.

You can see the "recovery" during the twists and turns around Bombela stadium.  The rest is just burn burn burn.

 

 

 

How this info is going to help during future racing......?  I don't know. 

This it seems is still a "new" science and it should be interesting to see what info is going to be useful.....

 

 

Spinnekop – thanks for sharing that fascinating graph.

It is an interesting discussion and the points I make below are not as criticism, but intended as constructive debate so that we figure out how we optimally use this metric:

 

1.       First up - Amazing numbers in that time trial – most of us can only dream about numbers like this!

 

2.       I’m completely in favour of training peaks and GC including W’ – I think it is very interesting and very useful as a post analysis tool and provided the values are dialled in correctly useful to design interval training. What I’m not sure about is the value in racing.

 

3.       Generally, in terms of time trials - perhaps you have a point. It could be used, to ensure that you “empty the tank” at the right rate, and not too quickly. However,  a couple of things to think about:

a.       What is the optimal strategy? Ride at critical power for as long as possible and then increase power to empty the tank at the end, or try to empty the tank as evenly as possible over the course of the time trial – e.g. target 75% w’bal after 25% of distance,  50% w’bal after 50% of distance, 25% W’bal after 75% of distance etc.

b.      What impact does the route profile have on the strategy? For example if the course was uphill for the first half, and downhill the next half I imagine that the optimal strategy will be to use up more of W’ in the first half, but how much more?

c.       In your graph, your W’ actually went negative about halfway through the ride, if I am interpreting it correctly. Now this might be because you did not have your parameters dialled in correctly – either W’ set too low (i.e. your above CP battery is bigger than you thought) or critical power set to low (you actually only start using the battery at a higher power level than the current parameters suggest). So if you had seen W’ bal close to zero on your garmin here in this ride would you have backed off the power? If you had, you would have ended up with a worse result. How do we know that you could not have gone even harder making w’ bal even more negative (you probably know whether there was anything left in the tank or not, but this is also based on feel.).

d.      I suspect that you paced yourself in this time trial according to power/normalized power. I am guessing that you worked out what power you could maintain over the expected duration of the time trial and tried to ride as closely to that as possible. By the looks of it based on the post-event analysis of even run-down of W’bal (the trend, not the values), it looks as though you did a pretty awesome job of even pacing (although we don't know for sure whether you could have gone harder still or if this was absolute maximum) – would tracking W’ in the ride have materially improved your pacing even if you had the parameters set correctly?

[madbradd]

A quick question about updating your FTP...

 

So I've been VERY untrained since beginning of June due to geographic location and limited access to equipment.

 

Then got a Kickr in August (Yay) and did and FTP test on trainerroad. Scored a whopping 234W (and I feel that I tested well, couldn't have managed much more)

 

So now I have my Kickr and a bike with me, and am training alot more. so just about 10 days after my test, TP tells me i have a new FTP (254W) woohoo! so I punch that in as my FTP and keep going (I'm mainly riding on Zwift, 30-45 mins a couple times a week plus some long rides on the weekend, also gonna be Zwift until the roads here have been graded cos they currently make CraterCruise Ultra feel like tar).

 

Anyway... so on Thursday I decide to do a bit of a burner lap around Richmond, new 20min Max.... 307W! massive jump. So should I now be setting my FTP at 292W, or leaving it at 254?

 

Did 100km yesterday on the Richmond course and average power was 193W for 3h40min.

 

How much of a difference will changing my FTP make to my TSS scoring, (I got a 274 TSS for the 100km and was poked after the ride - 4 hour nap type of poked)

 

Basically the question is how often should you update your FTP?

[Spinnekop]

Spinnekop – thanks for sharing that fascinating graph.

It is an interesting discussion and the points I make below are not as criticism, but intended as constructive debate so that we figure out how we optimally use this metric:

 

1.       First up - Amazing numbers in that time trial – most of us can only dream about numbers like this!

Thank you.  But seriously.  If someone like me can do this numbers....then anyone can.  You just need to wake up earlier in the day than the normal guy. 

 

3.       Generally, in terms of time trials - perhaps you have a point. It could be used, to ensure that you “empty the tank” at the right rate, and not too quickly. However,  a couple of things to think about:

a.       What is the optimal strategy? Ride at critical power for as long as possible and then increase power to empty the tank at the end, or try to empty the tank as evenly as possible over the course of the time trial – e.g. target 75% w’bal after 25% of distance,  50% w’bal after 50% of distance, 25% W’bal after 75% of distance etc.

Should be interesting to test it out.  I think every person will be different. 

I know if I start to hard, then the ride is going to be tough to keep at pace.

So to me optimal would be to start a little slower and then flat line in the end.  True timetrial religion. 

 

b.      What impact does the route profile have on the strategy? For example if the course was uphill for the first half, and downhill the next half I imagine that the optimal strategy will be to use up more of W’ in the first half, but how much more?

For me....not much.  FTP is FTP.... if it is on an uphill or a downhill.  All the same. 

 

c.       In your graph, your W’ actually went negative about halfway through the ride, if I am interpreting it correctly. Now this might be because you did not have your parameters dialled in correctly – either W’ set too low (i.e. your above CP battery is bigger than you thought) or critical power set to low (you actually only start using the battery at a higher power level than the current parameters suggest). So if you had seen W’ bal close to zero on your garmin here in this ride would you have backed off the power? If you had, you would have ended up with a worse result. How do we know that you could not have gone even harder making w’ bal even more negative (you probably know whether there was anything left in the tank or not, but this is also based on feel.).

Very well spotted.

My W' was set too low.  I have only started working on this the past month or so.  So back dating W' figures is a bit of a job.....heheheh

 

d.      I suspect that you paced yourself in this time trial according to power/normalized power. I am guessing that you worked out what power you could maintain over the expected duration of the time trial and tried to ride as closely to that as possible. By the looks of it based on the post-event analysis of even run-down of W’bal (the trend, not the values), it looks as though you did a pretty awesome job of even pacing (although we don't know for sure whether you could have gone harder still or if this was absolute maximum) – would tracking W’ in the ride have materially improved your pacing even if you had the parameters set correctly?

No.  But in hindsight I can now look and see if I really did give my 100%.  Sometimes you FEEL you give everything but on paper it was not.  So something else can be wrong.....not enough rest.  Sleep.  Nutrition. 

Then you can have a look at "other" things.

 

Given this graph, I pretty much layed everything out on the course.  So how do you "win" a timetrial if this was not good enough? 

Up the FTP. 

Up the W'

Same recipe for all other factors.

 

 

Still learning.....even after 20 years.

Getting older makes learning more intense.....just in order to keep up with the youngsters!!

[Spinnekop]

I try to update my FTP figure once a month or whenever I get a new value that I know I can trust. 

[RastaMan]

A quick question about updating your FTP...

 

So I've been VERY untrained since beginning of June due to geographic location and limited access to equipment.

 

Then got a Kickr in August (Yay) and did and FTP test on trainerroad. Scored a whopping 234W (and I feel that I tested well, couldn't have managed much more)

 

So now I have my Kickr and a bike with me, and am training alot more. so just about 10 days after my test, TP tells me i have a new FTP (254W) woohoo! so I punch that in as my FTP and keep going (I'm mainly riding on Zwift, 30-45 mins a couple times a week plus some long rides on the weekend, also gonna be Zwift until the roads here have been graded cos they currently make CraterCruise Ultra feel like tar).

 

Anyway... so on Thursday I decide to do a bit of a burner lap around Richmond, new 20min Max.... 307W! massive jump. So should I now be setting my FTP at 292W, or leaving it at 254?

 

Did 100km yesterday on the Richmond course and average power was 193W for 3h40min.

 

How much of a difference will changing my FTP make to my TSS scoring, (I got a 274 TSS for the 100km and was poked after the ride - 4 hour nap type of poked)

 

Basically the question is how often should you update your FTP?

il update it every 8-12 weeks

Also take into consideration the ride you did it on. I only update mine whene I do an FTP test every 8-12 weeks to determine it.

On a normal ride you might have set that new FTP on a climb, which doesn't count, the guidelines state that he gradient should be less than 2% etc etc and there are probs more out there for determining your FTP.

[eccc whippet]

Thought i would try out the cadence and see if it will improve my cycling...3 weeks into it and i have just got the weekly up date...it gives you a break down of a whole bunch of stuff.

 

weight 110 kg

 

HR avg - 162 bpm 

max HR 186 bpm big concern considering my age (49) and weight 110 kg.

 

avg bike power - 187 watt

max bike power - 2488 watt 

 

then at the bottom 

 

CP5 s - 634w

CP1m - 335w

CP5m - 259w

CP20m - 221w

 

 

after ever session you can log in and update your activities on the selfloops website.

 

dont use any devices on my bikes (will get a garmin one day)...no HRM...no cadence or power meter...so using a bike with all the goodies makes it interesting and gives you some idea of what you are doing.

 

one thing it is teaching me to do is control my pedal speed...normally i just pedal as fast as i can until i feel i might die if i dont stop...then take a break...either stop and get my breathe back or just freewheel for a while...till i feel better...even during the sessions i use to just pedal like crazy then look at the tablet and i would be way out...then slow down and get to the right watts...and try keep it constant.

[madbradd]

il update it every 8-12 weeks

Also take into consideration the ride you did it on. I only update mine whene I do an FTP test every 8-12 weeks to determine it.

On a normal ride you might have set that new FTP on a climb, which doesn't count, the guidelines state that he gradient should be less than 2% etc etc and there are probs more out there for determining your FTP.

Ash. ... OK that makes sense. The course I was riding had gradients of up to 16 percent.... but what I did notice was that the trainer wasn't actually responding to the gradient.. so it was pretty much a constant gradient throughout, so really not sure. I was expecting fast gains due to being off for a few months, so think I'll just take it as it goes. I expect FTP to be in the region of 370 by Sani2C.... so 290 seems a little high for now... 270 is probably more realistic especially since my first test was literally my 3rd or 4th hour on a bicycle since mid May. Will retest mid October and see

 

Another change is climate.... did my FTP in Jhb and now at about 800m amsl so I expect that would make a difference too.

[Ryno.]

Did an FTP test yesterday on a wattbike, and I was shocked to see my results.

My FTP:Kg was 3.05w/Kg.

I was off the bike from The start of October untill mid-December.

So I've only been training for 2 weeks since. And I am at my all time heaviest at 77,5kg. My normal racing weight is about 72kg.

Is it possible to go from 3,05 to 4w/kg before the 23rd of Feb?

[Jakkals.]

Did an FTP test yesterday on a wattbike, and I was shocked to see my results.

My FTP:Kg was 3.05w/Kg.

I was off the bike from The start of October untill mid-December.

So I've only been training for 2 weeks since. And I am at my all time heaviest at 77,5kg. My normal racing weight is about 72kg.

Is it possible to go from 3,05 to 4w/kg before the 23rd of Feb?

Ever heard of the most sophisticated doping program?

[SwissVan]

Here is a great testing procedure i found off the net,

 

1. 20 minutes easy warm up
2. 3 x 1-minute wind ups with a minute rest between (100 RPM pedal cadence)
3. 5 minutes easy
4. 5 minutes all out (hard at first, but not so hard that you can't complete the effort)
5. 10 minutes easy
6. 20-minute time trial effort (like the previous 5-minute all out effort, keep in control, hard but steady, you don't want to over cook it and die at the end)
7. 10 to 15 minute cool down

if using a PowerBeam / PowerSync best would be to do this on FREE RIDE with the control type being GRADE not target power !! why we suggest this is you don't want to be limited or governed during the test and target power will do this. 

 

Is there a significant difference if you use the free ride / gradient mode versus target power?

 

Originally i did it on free ride with a constant gradient and recently i did my FTP using the CVT FTP test which uses your last FTP as the target BUT allows you to adjust the target power as you need.

 

At the end of the day both methods produced the same results which i expected as i have not been doing the correct or enough training to improve my FTP 

 

I found using the target power option perhaps slightly easier compared to having to ride on feel... because it helps you maintain a constant effort especially in the first half... and then i adjusted the power target in the last 10 minutes according to what i thought i could maintain...

[SwissVan]

I'd be interested to know what type of session the seasoned power trainers find is most beneficial for improving FTP and what zones (% of FTP) they use to achieve this

Edited January 5, 2016 by SwissVan

[SimpleDom]

IDT induced Vomit works well.

 

Do 8 x 2 mins MAXIMAL efforts. 4-5 mins between. Highest resistance, toughest gear. If you can do 9, you've probably done it too lightly. Warm up properly first!!!!

 

Once a week for 3 weeks.

 

I'd be interested to know what type of session the seasoned power trainers find is most beneficial for improving FTP and what zones (% of FTP) they use to achieve this

[Jakkals.]

I'd be interested to know what type of session the seasoned power trainers find is most beneficial for improving FTP and what zones (% of FTP) they use to achieve this

to me 8 - 15 min @105% efforts helped. more 8 because I was tired by then already...do this once a week incorporated with other rides.