The NON-LCHF thread

[Wez-O]

I just completed my second attempt at LCHF. Some of you might have seen my blog when I was doing the Smack the Fat Challenge with Atkins SA. I don't want to hijack the LCHF thread but the blog is continuing and I'll post updates here. 

 

http://eatingtotrain.blogspot.com/2015/07/back-on-carbs.html

 

Summary: If you're an endurance athlete carbs make you faster. 

EVERY single rider at the Tour de France was on a high carb diet... Go figure

[tombeej]

Ketogenesis must have been part of human evolution. That is what enabled our forefathers, and indeed up to this day some remaining hunter gatherer tribes,  to survive extended periods of famine. The alternative pathways for energy production already exists within each of us. Perhaps it just takes some time to "switch on the genes" that has been lying dormant for hundreds of years?

 

Yes, it's an ancient part of our evolution as a human race. Nothing new about it and a very natural part of our bodies.

 

In fact, study after study shows that our bodies most preferred source of fuel is fat. Our bodies find it much easier to source fuel from fat than from carbs or protein. Comes back to why fat has the lowest thermic effect of the three - takes the least 'effort'.

 

People say a high fat diet is a 'fad' when compared to a low fat diet. The truth is completely the opposite. This 'low fat' thing is only a few decades old and turns upside down millennia of human evolution.

 

Without going into all the stuff again about whether animal fats are bad for you or not, folks who still hold onto the (very recently created) myth that saturated fats are bad for you, give this some thought: when you lose weight by dropping your own body fat percentage, your body has effectively been burning saturated animal fat for food. Your own personal store of 'animal' fat. The process is identical to that followed when we digest lamb or beef fat, no difference whatsoever. Perfectly natural and healthy. You're telling me that when you lose weight (body fat), that's bad for you?

 

Like we've said a million times, just as there are good carbs and bad carbs there are also good fats and bad fats.

 

We just need to recognise which is which, eat the good stuff as much as possible and try and minimise the bad stuff where possible.

 

I don't follow a LCHF diet. I think it's extreme. I also think low fat diets and vegetarian diets are extreme - on the opposite end. And vegans are full-on nut jobs. 

 

But I don't fear the good fats at all. They have their place in a balanced diet based on what we were evolved to eat and thrive on. The good fats have been uniformly demonised for too long and it's great to see that pendulum slowly starting to swing back again.

 

The big challenge is not to get caught up in the pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction, which I think is where the LCHF thing has gone. They're starting to demonise all sorts of good carbs, etc.

 

The truth is somewhere in the middle, when the pendulum has stopped its wild swings.

[tombeej]

EVERY single rider at the Tour de France was on a high carb diet... Go figure

 

Yes, during the TDF, where it's absolutely necessary. They're also eating huge daily quantities (up to 6000 - 8000 calories per day). I'm sure you'll also agree that that's definitely not part of a normal healthy diet for the average joe. Extreme diet for an extreme situation.

 

Go back and look at their normal diets when they're out of competition. Small portions, lots of green leafy vegetables, moderate amount of fruit and the right amounts of healthy lean protein... and the right amount of healthy fats.

 

If you read the memoirs of pro cyclists you'll find they actually eat a lot less than the average joe. If you try and use the TDF to prove an argument you are falling into the old trap of trying using an exception to prove the rule.

[FrankG]

Noakes doesn't need me to defend him but people seem to miss the fact that his high carb dietary advice in the 80's & 90's was for a person trying to run their fastest possible marathon. His switch to LCHF has been for health reasons. I reckon he was correct then and now. You want to reach your potential in endurance sport, eat plenty of carbs. You want to be healthier, cut carbs.

 

Fair enough. Obviously carbs without significant exercise will make you fat. There are plenty of documentaries on GMO's which has made me eat organic as much as possible. Sugar is non-existent in my life aside from weekends, and even then it is dark chocolate. High fat, that to me is debatable as from what I can see there has been no long term research on that. 

 

Sure I cheat now and again, but a healthy diet with a regular amount of 'exuberant' exercise is all that is needed IMO to live a happy and balanced life.

 

I fully admit though that I do not have the deep understanding of proteins and carbs etc that some have here so am always willing to try and understand more.

[tombeej]

Pro riders living on mountains of carbs.... Let's nip that one in the bud, shall we?

 

Nigel Mitchell, head of nutrition a Team Sky and British Cycling: "The traditional image of pro cyclists consuming mountains of carbohydrate-laden fuel takes a back seat."

 

Want to know what they really do eat? Read here.

- More protein than you expect (“We really focus on protein and its quality")

- Healthy fats ("two grams of high quality fish oil every day")

- They get their simple carbs from fruits and vegetables, no processed sugar.

- But when they're racing, it's all about the carbs. But of course, that's obvious!

[jcza]

Chris Horner lived on McDonalds, doughnuts, burritos and Snicker bars washed down with gallons of Coke for years. You can read about it here - http://chrishornerracing.com/articles/2010/1/8/nutrition.html

 

Clearly when you riding that much you can get away with it. He subsequently made some changes after injury. 

[Winstonian1984]

 The protein for recovery could also be debatable. I tried it and it didnt work for me. I saw the greatest improvement in my cycling when I ate nothing for 2 hours after training and then just went on eating high carbs(primarily fruit and veg). 

 

Also started all rides fasted. Dependant on intensity,"easy" days would be 3 to 4 hours fasted, high intensity days would be carb drink etc.

 

Then again, as stated, what works for some wont work for others.

[tombeej]

6 Graphs That Show Why The “War” on Fat Was a Huge Mistake

 

The “war” on saturated fat is the biggest mistake in the history of nutrition.

 

This "low fat fad" that has been forced us in the last 40 years has seen the human race descend into it's most unhealthy collective state in the entire history of its evolution (archeological evidence supports this as well).

 

Like I say, I am not a LCHF disciple (although I did give it a proper go for a while). I live by words like 'balance', 'moderation' and 'variety'.

 

But I am part of the rapidly expanding groundswell of people who are starting to wake up to the realisation that we've been led off the garden path by some seriously misguided nutritional 'facts' these past few years that are now systematically being dismantled. Thank heavens.

[Eldron]

 

Pro riders living on mountains of carbs.... Let's nip that one in the bud, shall we?

 

- More protein than you expect (“We really focus on protein and its quality")

- Healthy fats ("two grams of high quality fish oil every day")

- They get their simple carbs from fruits and vegetables, no processed sugar.

- But when they're racing, it's all about the carbs. But of course, that's obvious!

 

 

A fine summary of how to live when you're an endurance athlete in my opinion!

 

One thing I do like about paleo/LCHF/banting blah blah diet is the focus on reducing processed foods.

 

Processed foods allow us to feel full (for a short time) and take in trillions of calories without getting (or at least getting very little) nutrition.

 

I've found myself looking for natural food to fill my "feed my body" quotient and processed food to fill my "feed the soul" quotient.

 

Like most things not all processed is bad and not all natural is good....it does require a bit of thinking...

[Sniffie]

Fair enough. Obviously carbs without significant exercise will make you fat. There are plenty of documentaries on GMO's which has made me eat organic as much as possible. Sugar is non-existent in my life aside from weekends, and even then it is dark chocolate. High fat, that to me is debatable as from what I can see there has been no long term research on that. 

 

Sure I cheat now and again, but a healthy diet with a regular amount of 'exuberant' exercise is all that is needed IMO to live a happy and balanced life.

 

I fully admit though that I do not have the deep understanding of proteins and carbs etc that some have here so am always willing to try and understand more.

Perhaps, perhaps not. High carbohydrate intake has only been part of the human diet for the last 10 000 odd years of our 4 million years. If saturated animal fat is bad for humans we would have been extinct long ago. So you can argue that our fat experiment has been going for millions of years. What is also interesting  to note is that in all westernized cultures over the world, as per capita fat consumption dropped over the last 100 years, the incidence of metabolic disorders rose proportionately. 

[Eldron]

 The protein for recovery could also be debatable. I tried it and it didnt work for me. I saw the greatest improvement in my cycling when I ate nothing for 2 hours after training and then just went on eating high carbs(primarily fruit and veg). 

 

Also started all rides fasted. Dependant on intensity,"easy" days would be 3 to 4 hours fasted, high intensity days would be carb drink etc.

 

Then again, as stated, what works for some wont work for others.

 

It is amazing how people differ! I praise protein recovery drinks for saving my life (ok maybe a little overdramatic!!!).

 

After really hard sessions I used to feel a little nauseous so I didn't eat. I used to sleep most of the afternoon and then eat - pretty much a waste of a day.

 

Then I tried protein recovery drinks - I could swallow them despite the exercise induced nausea. A quick power nap after the protein and I was good to go. Recovery improved and I saved loads of time by not sleeping the day away.

[GaryvdM]

I don't follow a LCHF diet. I think it's extreme. I also think low fat diets and vegetarian diets are extreme - on the opposite end. And vegans are full-on nut jobs. 

 

 

LOL - Pun intended?

[TALUS]

How do know the incidence of metabolic diseases have risen? Very common statement - no basis. How many people had their cholesterol, bloodsugar or bloodpressure tested 50years ago? And 200years ago? Why are people living longer now than ever before. The current extended life expectancy (85+) is certainly not due to any new diets or misguided medical facts.

 

What did all those people that "died in their sleep" for years die from?

[GrumpyOldGuy]

I decided against quoting every little bit I disagree with so as not to upset any of the Noakes Disciples that made their way over to this thread. Those indoctrinated people can be so dangerous....

 

It is really simple. Who has got what at stake with this "fat is OK" thing?

 

Noakes gets money for saying controversial stuff (again) knowing full well that when the eventual outcome becomes clear nobody will be able to take him on (it takes years for cardiovascular disease to develop).

 

The Disciples that obviously are keen on conspiracy theories and new medical facts (that are largely rejected by the medical community) - they will have new reasons why the plan didn't work. They will then file their new diet bible next to their magnetic wrist bands and garlic tablets. Alas they (and some of their kids) will pay with irreversible damage.

 

And then you have the guys that actually have money at stake. The Life Insurers. Please show me one that will accept you as a normal risk with an elevated cholesterol level. They only look at facts and proven data. Money is at stake.

 

 

Indeed, when the first LCHF diet thread was active, before it was lost and restarted, I commented that I had asked my cardiologist of his opinions of this diet. His answer was he sees far too many high cholesterol based issues to ever recommend this kind of diet and his advice was always to remove fat as much as possible from the diet.

 

I was immediately attacked by all the "Google qualified Cardiologists" here pointing me to this site to that comment which (surprise, surprise) supported their theory.

 

I considered mentioning this point however I decided it was not worth the trouble and just left it.

 

I follow no particular diet, I eat everything and anything and my weight has stayed constant at 76 kgs give or take a kilo since i was in the army, 40 odd years ago.!

 

There is no secret to weight loss, maintenance or healthy eating in my view, its well documented, its modern society which has changed our perceptions and convenience is now often more important to a "time poor" population, making a healthy breakfast for example is time consuming and often tedious, however dropping by the Big M drive through on the way to work for a coffee and a do-nut is quick, satisfying and convenient.

[EmptyB]

Its all about a balance....low carb my @rse!!

[tombeej]

Indeed, when the first LCHF diet thread was active, before it was lost and restarted, I commented that I had asked my cardiologist of his opinions of this diet. His answer was he sees far too many high cholesterol based issues to ever recommend this kind of diet and his advice was always to remove fat as much as possible from the diet.

 

I was immediately attacked by all the "Google qualified Cardiologists" here pointing me to this site to that comment which (surprise, surprise) supported their theory.

 

I considered mentioning this point however I decided it was not worth the trouble and just left it.

 

I follow no particular diet, I eat everything and anything and my weight has stayed constant at 76 kgs give or take a kilo since i was in the army, 40 odd years ago.!

 

There is no secret to weight loss, maintenance or healthy eating in my view, its well documented, its modern society which has changed our perceptions and convenience is now often more important to a "time poor" population, making a healthy breakfast for example is time consuming and often tedious, however dropping by the Big M drive through on the way to work for a coffee and a do-nut is quick, satisfying and convenient.

 

I'm concerned to hear you say you were 'attacked' for your question on that thread (don't remember that at all, it was a very welcoming thread from what I recall, but then again I'm getting old).

 

I'm sure there are still a lot of cardiologists - especially from the older generation - who are still stuck in the old dogma. It might even be unlikely that they'll ever change their views. People can get very defensive when their long-held belief systems are challenged.

 

For every 1 cardiologist holding on to their established beliefs that fats are bad for you, there are 2 young cardiologists challenging those views.

 

The UK is one of the countries where these specialists are standing up and saying the numbers don't support what they'd been taught at varsity. The evidence is pointing them in the opposite direction.

 

Grumpy, you based your thinking on the response of one person, your cardiologist. What if you'd asked another who said fats are not to be feared? Would you have gone with them? Perhaps instead of putting all your faith in the opinion of one person, expand your research a little more?

 

Like this cardiologist, for example?

 

Or this group of cardiologists?

 

Lastly, a personal story:

My sister is a dietitian. For 10 years she lived in the UK (came back 2 years ago) where she ran the dietetics component of the bariatric unit at St Thomas Hospital in London. If you sat down with her you'll hear of her extreme frustration at what she found after returning to SA. She says it feels like she's stepped back in time. SA dietitians (and obviously many cardiologists) are so far behind the curve. They are holding onto this old thinking, often quite aggressively, which she admits has shocked her a bit. The UK and the rest of Europe have left us behind on this subject. It's got to the point where she's given up even trying to hold conversations with some of her old varsity mates. For them, fats are bad and that's it. Spend an evening with her and you'll have a wealth of knowledge to tap into. Evidence based stuff. From cardiologists, physicians, GPs and oncologists to nutritional scientists and regular dietitians: people who are at the forefront of these issues, the ones doing the actual research, and dealing with actual patients. The highly skilled people running departments of international recognised 1st world hospitals and research labs. Not "conspiracy theorists that have been rejected by the medical community".

 

As usual, this is a touchy subject for some. I've said my piece about fats and hopefully sparked some interest in a few fence-sitters to perhaps do their own research and come to their own conclusions.

 

But that's where I'll leave it. Going to jump off this bus early. Over to the rest of you.... bye now.