Cyclists with a "Running" Problem

[dave303e]

Do you not enter a weight into the runner's profile when you set up the watch. Surely the energy required to move 80kg at a certain speed is more than to move 60kg at same speed just purely due to physics?

[rudi-h]

Not off-topic at all.  The only off-topic chat here is cycling stuff..

 

This is a concept I cannot grasp and or figure out myself.  Taking a run this week, my wife's cadence was ave-180, max-190 where mine was 160 and 170. 

 

Now I am 1.9 and she is 1.65.  I have tried my best to make my strides quicker and shorter (1.04m where hers on this run was 0.94), but I cannot get that cadence up.  

 

Problem with quicker is, my wife is not going to keep up, we run together.  So what else should I do?   Shorter and quicker strides than I am able to put out is not going to be comfortable, so what am I missing? 

 

I would really like to get this right if it is something that I am doing wrong, perhaps even contributing to itb for example...

 

I'm not quite 1.9m, but not short either at 1.84m...

 

The fast cadence does NOT come naturally to me at all, but if I stick it through for a few minutes, I tend to remember the rhythm for the remainder of the run.

 

So what I did was to run the first km with headphones.  Not really my first choice of music, but I found two songs that have a fast natural beat which i found easy to follow with my stride.  One is "'till I collapse" from Eminem and the other is "keep the dogs at bay" from seether.  (I'll need to find more songs soon, I'll go off my face if I need to listen to the same stuff starting every run...)

 

You don't have to run quicker, just take smaller strides.  Along with the shorter strides, your vertical oscillation will also drop to more acceptable levels.  Let the music help you, I could also not do it by just looking at the cadence on my watch screen.

 

good luck!!

[rudi-h]

Talking stride length, cadence etc... I've got a Fenix 3, should I be getting a Garmin footpod as well? Do you guys find it adds a lot of value?

 

Running or a tri HR belt gives you a lot more than a footpod in terms of run dynamics, but a foodpod is good for running indoors.  The wrist sensor on my watch used to underestimate my speed on a treadmill with around 15%...  aint nobody got no time for that!!

[Jackes]

Do you not enter a weight into the runner's profile when you set up the watch. Surely the energy required to move 80kg at a certain speed is more than to move 60kg at same speed just purely due to physics?

 

Yes you do, sex, weight and length.   But why does she use less calories with that HR effort. That is my issue. I would've thought that at 1.9 and 88 vs her 1.65 and 60kg we should use roughly the same calories, taking into account male/female?     Clearly according to her (unfit) HR she works WAY harder than I do, but clearly the newer watch recons otherwise.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Jackes

[rudi-h]

So we did a comparable run this morning again to check that calories on my wife's watch that is so way down on her new watch.  Now same watches, Forerunner 230's.  Same route together, everything, here is the data...

 

Mine - 10.01 km /  58:49 /  786 C / 151 bpm-Avg HR / 165 bpm Max HR 

161 spm Avg Cadence  / 168 spm Max Cadence  / 1.06 m Avg Stride Length

Heart Rate Zones

Z5 - 0:47 - 1%

Z4 - 45:20 - 77%

Z3 - 11:30 - 20%

Z2 - 0:35 - 1%

Z1 - 0:28 - 1%

 

 

Hers - 10.01 km / 58:42 / 563 C /163 bpm Avg HR / 175 bpm Max HR

181 spm Avg Cadence / 189 spm Max Cadence / 0.94 m Avg Stride Length

 

Heart Rate Zones

Z5 - 36:52 - 62%

Z4 - 18:18 - 31%

Z3 - 2:09 - 3%

Z2 - 0:47 - 1%

Z1 - 0:28 - 0%

 

 

So what am I missing or why has her calories gone down so much from the forerunner 15 (old) to this new one where there was not such a big difference between us normally.   This whilst she is the one suffering on the run?

 

My issue with this huge difference is, that our calories goes towards active days earned on the medical and not sometimes she misses out.

 

as dave said, it's just physics...

 

The main reason for needing energy to run is to move your body vertically with each step.  (when running on a flat surface at a constant speed.)  Your leg that makes contact with the ground moves your entire body by a vertical distance.  If you have a running HR strap, this is the "vertical oscillation" measurement that you see in your running stats.

 

To roughly calculate the energy you expend, you need to multiply the following terms:

 

weight X vertical oscillation X cadence X constant

 

The constant will be a conversion factor to get the measurements above into the unit of calories and is the same for both you and your wife, so for comparison you can ignore it.

 

For you it will be something like this:

 

90 kg X 11 cm X 160 spm = 1584

 

For your wife, maybe something like this:

 

60 kg x 10 cm x 180 spm = 1080

 

The fraction according to your garmin is 786/563 = 1.4 times more calories.

The fraction according to the calc above is 1584/1080 = 1.46 times more calories.

 

It does however seem that the Mrs is running a bit closer to her max compared to yourself (looking at the HR zones), thus her body is likely pumping a bit more blood and her body is generating a bit more heat, which would mean that she expends a bit more energy than you.

 

The fact that the numbers don't line up perfectly is due to me making incorrect guesses of weight and vertical oscillation, the terrain may not be perfectly flat and that the HR thresholds on the watches are not perfectly calibrated.  But I'd say the difference measured by the Garmin is about right. 

[Jackes]

It does however seem that the Mrs is running a bit closer to her max compared to yourself (looking at the HR zones), thus her body is likely pumping a bit more blood and her body is generating a bit more heat, which would mean that she expends a bit more energy than you.

 

The fact that the numbers don't line up perfectly is due to me making incorrect guesses of weight and vertical oscillation, the terrain may not be perfectly flat and that the HR thresholds on the watches are not perfectly calibrated.  But I'd say the difference measured by the Garmin is about right. 

 

I did a hard reset on both 2 weeks back to sort out if there was any issues, but I guess it is what it is as you say, thanks for the explanation. 

 

And yeah, she lost all her fitness since comrades, damm struggling frustrating sufferfest laying ahead for the next few months, AGAIN....

[SeaBee]

I may have missed this earlier, but do you have the correct max HR's entered for the both of you? Otherwise she is properly being stretched (sorry Stretch, not calling!) and it is not (IMO) sustainable to train at such intensities. 

 

If that is her correct max HR and she IS working that hard, slow down for her sake to allow her to gain fitness. Otherwise she'll be injured before too long. Just my 2c.

[Jackes]

I may have missed this earlier, but do you have the correct max HR's entered for the both of you? Otherwise she is properly being stretched (sorry Stretch, not calling!) and it is not (IMO) sustainable to train at such intensities. 

 

If that is her correct max HR and she IS working that hard, slow down for her sake to allow her to gain fitness. Otherwise she'll be injured before too long. Just my 2c.

 

Our max HR is Garmin calculated, I once again guess that is correct.

 

Yeah, she huffed and puffed the whole run and I could not understand what the issue was, thought she was exaggerating..  Untill I saw this after the run, clearly she was giving it her all.

 

Agreed!

[Pieter1]

Hey guys. I'm doing the Kuwait marathon on the 18th of November. On the 26th of Feb is the Dubai marathon. I'm keen on doing that one as well. Do I start my marathon training programme from scratch again after about a weeks rest?

[Barry Stuart]

Back in the day,Comrades Runners only had those cheap stop watches, and the batteries lasted for about 1-2 years. Now we cant even train for 4 days, before we have to charge the damn things. I remember when my dad use to run the Comrades, early 80's, he used a Casio. Looks kinda like this one. If the battery went dead, no prob, just unscrew the back part and buy a battery at the local pharmacy . Easy Peasy.

But how did he upload it to Strava?

[Barry Stuart]

On the note of watches and data, etc. Over the last few weeks I've taken to switching my data fields off and leaving my watch on either the clock face or just a timer. I've enjoyed my training more than ever, particularly the long runs where I now just run to how my body feels and tune out the pace or the distance. Even doing intervals today, all I had on was the timer screen and I just ran by feel. It felt a lot more fluid and actually turned out to be marginally quicker than my previous sessions.

[SwissVan]

Our max HR is Garmin calculated, I once again guess that is correct.

 

Dont assume that.

 

Not even Garmin can be trusted to calculate MHR correctly, the only way to do it is by a proper field MHR test / sufferfest

[Pieter1]

On the note of watches and data, etc. Over the last few weeks I've taken to switching my data fields off and leaving my watch on either the clock face or just a timer. I've enjoyed my training more than ever, particularly the long runs where I now just run to how my body feels and tune out the pace or the distance. Even doing intervals today, all I had on was the timer screen and I just ran by feel. It felt a lot more fluid and actually turned out to be marginally quicker than my previous sessions.

I do the same. I only use it on easy runs to make shure I stay in zone 2. What I am irritated with is the difference in pace between the watch and treadmill. The watch is on par at 6:30min/km but the faster I set the treadmill the slower my pace on the watch becomes. Will a footpod sort this out?

[SeaBee]

It's official. I'm on my way to the physio. 

 

First serious niggle since before Oceans... two weeks before CTM. Went on a lekker trail run, picked up some issues on my left calf. Must have compensated for the rest of the way, but the afternoon my hammie was a bit sore. And then it moved down and is concentrated behind the knee now, right where all the muscles joins. Rolling it is a... beach. 

 

Was on some easier runs (even for me!) this week just to try something. Not much better. With time running out, there's not much options other than shedding a tear or two whilst this is getting loosened. 

 

Yes, I'm ready for smiling politely at the "In my professional opinion..."-speech!   (Whilst most likely booking a session for shortly after CTM.)

Edited September 7, 2017 by SeaBee

[Hacc]

On the note of watches and data, etc. Over the last few weeks I've taken to switching my data fields off and leaving my watch on either the clock face or just a timer. I've enjoyed my training more than ever, particularly the long runs where I now just run to how my body feels and tune out the pace or the distance. Even doing intervals today, all I had on was the timer screen and I just ran by feel. It felt a lot more fluid and actually turned out to be marginally quicker than my previous sessions.

I know a guy that trained for a year without looking at his watch or stressing about pace, cadence etc... He wanted to run a BR in 2015... He ran Comrades with his watch in his pocket. He ran an 8:40!  I am very tempted to do the same for the training months coming up until December. Relax a little about my pace and just start enjoying running again. It is getting way too scientific... and Strava is not helping. 

 

So how many will be running this weekend without looking at your watch?

[Hacc]

It's official. I'm on my way to the physio. 

 

First serious niggle since before Oceans... two weeks before CTM. Went on a lekker trail run, picked up some issues on my left calf. Must have compensated for the rest of the way, but the afternoon my hammie was a bit sore. And then it moved down and is concentrated behind the knee now, right where all the muscles joins. Rolling it is a... beach. 

 

Was on some easier runs (even for me!) this week just to try something. Not much better. With time running out, there's not much options other than shedding a tear or two whilst this is getting loosened. 

 

Yes, I'm ready for smiling politely at the "In my professional opinion..."-speech!   (Whilst most likely booking a session for shortly after CTM.)

Do you feel the niggle only when running? I am sort of experiencing the same issue. My left calve has a niggle when I run, I don't feel it during the day. 

 

Hope it is nothing serious