ASG - An open letter, a good response, insights about race situation in SA

[TALUS]

To Wynand and ASG,

 

Thank you for responding, it goes a long way to mend broken relationships.

 

I fully understand that it is hard to make a profit from presenting a race.

 

Each of us have their own needs in a race. I will never ask for my money back (although I don't even have an official time) because my number one priority was attended to - safety. I will always choose to ride a race with bike marshals above another one without marshals. Next year I will ride your race again if you advertise the fact that you will have bike marshals.

 

As far as pricing goes: all I am interested in is a feeling that I received value- note my previous positive comments about the Satellite Classic.

 

As cycling promotor you also know that many factors are involved in the decision to ride a race. At this time of the year seeding is an important part of us backmarkers' agenda. I honestly think it was a mistake to pull Racetec and not mention in your communique that the results will be sent through to them. I, for one switched off from pushing hard to training mode.

 

Most cyclists are not unreasonable and we are mutually dependent on each other (organisers and riders) to continue with our sport thus open communication is the way to go.

 

See you at the next race with Bike Marshals.

[EmptyB]

Good thread and interesting read. Well done all parties involved....

[Zatek]

I hope this race is on next year. It is on my to do list.

[Dgas]

To Wynand and ASG

 

Communication goes a long way, had there been updates all along, there were some, but obviously did not bring the point across and not everybody seems to have received them, there would have been lot less upset cyclists, me included. Before the event I received a number of emails urging me to enter the event. Emails after the event were not all that numerous.

 

I have no idea what it cost to put on a cycling event but I am quite sure that ASG, as a viable business are not doing this for charity. If you are loosing money on the cycling events your business model must be that without a place to race it, you will not be selling all those Pinarellos and expensive accessories. I and many others would probably not be spending all that money on bikes and kit without being able to justify it by racing.

 

If you are loosing money on the events then put up the entry fee to a point where it is profitable. You may loose some races or attendance but that is a business decision that you need to make. 

 

My other hobby is motorsport. The entry fee for a club race is in the region of R 1 000, the drivers are paying and are getting about 45 minutes on the race track for the day. My race car is about the same value as my race bike  (a Pinarello from ASG). I don't mind paying the race fee as long as I feel I am getting value for money.

 

I normally support your events as they are well organised and safe. The Sondela Classic was not up to the usual standard and hence all the comments.

 

I will probably enter this event next year as I do enjoy the route.

 

 

[Jracer57]

Thank you for a comprehensive, well thought out and reasoned response. There are many points that made me think differently.

 

I think it was the wrong call to pull racetec timing, but i think your offer to refund anyone that feels they did not get what they paid for is a customer friendly response that is step further than what could otherwise be reasonably be expected. A measure of a company is not whether they mess up but how they respond.

 

I hope that your company is able to make fair and solid profits, but without the customer sentiments expressed in my open letter.

 

 

Thanks again for your time, i will change the title of the thread appropriately too.

And this is how mature debates/disagreements should be handled...is there a kudo's button for all concerned, SA Politicians could learn from this.

 

Good Job ASG, see you at your next race.

[rudi-h]

I didn't ride any ASG events until the Jock Tour this year.  Was a great race and if circumstances permit I would love to take part again, as well as some of the other multi-day races that ASG have on the cards.

 

The only potential issue that I see is that ASG threw in a LOT of goodies along with the entry that included sunglasses, supplements, saddle bags, clothes and even helmets for those who entered early enough, making the race effectively "free" if one would consider the retail value of the goodies.  As a first time entrant the value proposition was great as I could use all of the goodies provided, making me and many others very happy customers!

 

So while we are on a positive an constructive note, perhaps for future editions a entry fee reduction based on not accepting the goodies would go a long way both to assist consumers who might need to close the taps a little as well as improve the perception by some that races are used as an avenue for ASG to flog over-stocked products.

[Edge_Design]

I would be very interested to see the income statement from a decent sized road race these days. I have no idea what costs go into it, but I have never been able to understand how it has gone from R25 to enter a weekly fun ride 15(?) years ago to R200 odd or whatever it costs now (around 3 times the annual inflation rate over that period). The last rides I entered had roughly 1000 riders so that is R200k towards traffic cops and coke (all you really want on the ride). 

 

I'm not saying there is a big profit in it as I really don't know, but it would just be interesting to see where the money gets spent out of interest (would definitely make me more comfortable paying that amount if I knew!).

[Patchelicious]

I would be very interested to see the income statement from a decent sized road race these days. I have no idea what costs go into it, but I have never been able to understand how it has gone from R25 to enter a weekly fun ride 15(?) years ago to R200 odd or whatever it costs now (around 3 times the annual inflation rate over that period). The last rides I entered had roughly 1000 riders so that is R200k towards traffic cops and coke (all you really want on the ride). 

 

I'm not saying there is a big profit in it as I really don't know, but it would just be interesting to see where the money gets spent out of interest (would definitely make me more comfortable paying that amount if I knew!).

I speak under correction, but it probably has to do with additional safety, legislative measures that now need to be in place, especially for the road races?

[JA-Q001]

I speak under correction, but it probably has to do with additional safety, legislative measures that now need to be in place, especially for the road races?

And the fact that government changed their policies a few years ago, now instead of using on duty traffic police and the state covering their cost, the organizer has to pay that officers salary for the hours worked on the day.  

 

So lets say you have 10 cops on the road (that's a low number, because every intersection is supposed to have one) and their hourly pay rate is say R 100 per hour (also sometimes taken as overtime, so could be multiplied by 1,5) that's R 1000 per hour the event is on, lets say the officers gets used for 8 hours, that's already R 8000 that has to be forked out for 10 cops. That's excluding their fuel and lunches.

 

I know that this is one factor that has been killing races since inception and I think that also excludes the hiring of the road.

 

Edit - This is my understanding from what I have been told by some clubs in Bloemfontein, where race entry fees was still under R50 for most races in 2010 and then suddenly no more races were being organised because of the increase in expenses and people not understanding why race fees have to be increased from R50 to R150 suddenly.

[No Hare]

bliksem , this was so good I sommer want to buy something from ASG. 

[Skubarra]

 

Edit - This is my understanding from what I have been told by some clubs in Bloemfontein, where race entry fees was still under R50 for most races in 2010 and then suddenly no more races were being organised because of the increase in expenses and people not understanding why race fees have to be increased from R50 to R150 suddenly.

 

Agree

 

+ nowadays customers demand that races have a dedicated website, kiddies play areas, spreads at the water tables, beer gardens, food stalls, dj's, secure bike parks, mechanics all the other bells & whistles..

 

Most of those R50 races in the good old days had very little of that, water at the watertables and maybe a boerie roll stand at the finish.

 

The whole scene has definitely changed. 

[Bobbo_SA]

 

So lets say you have 10 cops on the road (that's a low number, because every intersection is supposed to have one) and their hourly pay rate is say R 100 per hour (also sometimes taken as overtime, so could be multiplied by 1,5) that's R 1000 R150 per hour the event is on, lets say the officers gets used for 8 hours, that's already R 8000 R1200 x 10 = R12,000 that has to be forked out for 10 cops. That's excluding their fuel and lunches.

 

 

 

Divide that by 370 riders and it adds R32.50 to the entry fee just for 10 cops.

[Baaisikilist]

Thank you for your letter. It contains the most heartfelt and honest comments I have read in all my years following the Hub, understanding, of course, that the Hub is essentially a venting forum.

 

Against this backdrop your letter was like a breath of fresh air and you richly deserve a response.

 

Thanks for supporting us for so many years.

 

ASG took over the management of these mass participation road events because they were simply not going to continue if we didn’t assume the financial responsibility for their presentation.

 

We felt that we would get a measure of commercial value out of the marketing while at the same time doing a service to the sport by ensuring that these road events continue. Four years down the line, we’re feeling very differently.

 

Not only do these events still run at a substantial financial loss to us, even with external sponsorship, but they present a greater challenge every year to keep our riders (customers) happy in difficult traffic and road management circumstances.  ASG Sport Solutions, the import/distribution company (who ironically stand to lose most from poor brand representation) ironically has been funding the lion share of these losses over the past 3-4 years.

 

Cycling now also falls within the event’s act and most municipalities have become compliant this year, which has drastically increased costs. Road events are now pre-luded by at least 5 JOC meetings. This has further increased the financial burden on these events with various service suppliers all having to attend these meetings every time.

 

Although respondents on our post event surveys on our road races have given us an average 8 out of 10 thus far (and this includes the survey after the timing challenges on the Tour of Good Hope), we feel that these events are damaging our brand image and if we carry our current sentiments into next year, we won’t present them again.

 

The races you refer to – Carnival City Macsteel Classic and Race for Victory – have the same challenges, but they are run by non-profit organisations. These organisations only present one race a year and draw on lots of volunteers from schools, churches and rotary organisations who do things as a once off.  They don’t have to run a business and still they struggle to make these events finish out of the red financially.

 

You’re welcome to reference both the organisers of these events with whom we’re regular contact. They, in fact, assist us with the organisation – a lot of you would have seen Merv’s friendly marshalling face on the road at our events.

 

The Lost City Classic isn’t an ASG event, but the long time organiser there, Johan du Toit, has also approached us to take over the running of the event because he’s out of ideas on how to try and ensure that the Cancer Association benefits well enough out of the event.

 

Regarding the Sondela SuperClassic, I took the decision to do manual timing because the numbers on the event (370) didn’t justify Race Tec doing timing.

 

This year we have been influenced by ineffective CSA management of the race calendar, negatively impacting on three of our events.  First up was the Walkerville Classic, which clashed with the Magalies Monster, then came the Satellite Classic, which was placed on the same weekend as the Amashova.

And then, to crown it all off, they placed the Radio Pretoria Classic on the same day as the Sondela SuperClassic - a first year event in the place of a Classic that we have built up over three years to 850 riders last year.

The Sondela SuperClassic traditionally attracted 80% of its entrants from Pretoria. With another race, which is well organised by the Jacaranda Club in Pretoria on the same day, it was obviously going to affect the numbers drastically.

 

Let’s be honest, the Sondela Classic is as nice race in a nice environment, but it’s very similar to any other safe and well run road race. So if you have the option not to have to drive 200km to do the event when you have an alternative, you won’t.

 

But we still pushed through with the organisation. We have never cancelled an event because we don’t want to let riders down. At Sondela there were a total of 370 riders.

 

The results are published and we are happy to refund all riders who feel they didn’t get a good service in the absence of RaceTec. Please send me a personal mail and I will ensure your entry fee gets refunded (wynand@asgworld.co.za)

 

Manual timing is not an uncommon occurrence and our ASG crew competently do manual timing at a few of our events where it doesn’t make sense to do Race Tec timing.

 

Remember that in the Tour de Boland timing was done by Western Province officials and not our crew.  The Tour of Good Hope 2016 will have electronic timing - we committed to this from the outset.

 

Results will be shared with Race Tec and form part of the ASG seeding index.

 

Regarding the value offering at our events. The simple answer is that our entry fee increases this year were to try and limit the losses on the events.  It's hard to swallow all these comments about 'all about money and making profit' when anyone that's try to put a race together and truly understands the cost involved will tell you differently in no time.

 

I don’t think the entry deal at Sondela was bad. The long distance entry was R335, but it included a High 5 racing bottle with product valued at R130 as well as some other smaller goodie bag stuff. We don’t get these free of charge although heavily subsidised from HIGH5 (via ASG Sport Solutions - our sister company).  This is done in order to provide some kind of ‘added value’ at a race that is already more expensive to present simply from a location point of view.

 

Thank you again for supporting our events for such a long time.

From the honest tone of your letter, it’s clear that you are someone who appreciates the late nights and long hours our crew endure to successfully deliver these events year upon-year.

 

Your comments are valid and I hope that this explanation has put things in perspective from our side.

 

Regards

DAMN, this guy is also good...!!! 

[Frosty]

Here's an example of some expenses at a typical race, showing a % of the total.

 

Admin/Race day expenses 4.9%

Advertising & Promotions 2.6%

Bank Charges 0.3%

Equipment Hire 3.8%

Federation levies 7.0%

Marshalls & Race officials 8.3%

Medals 7.2%

Medical Services 1.6%

Printing and Stationery 1.2%

Prize Money 6.9%

Prizes purchased 4.0%

Race Registration 13.5%

Race Insurance 0.7%

Refreshments & Hospitality 4.8%

T-shirts purchased 3.8%

Donations 1.7%

Timing 9.3%

Toilet hire 3.2%

Traffic department 2.9%

Super Sport 26-min feature 9.6%

Race Numbers 2.7%

 

 

edit: added Timing 9.3% to bring the total % to 100.

[Cycling Major]

Thank you for your letter. It contains the most heartfelt and honest comments I have read in all my years following the Hub, understanding, of course, that the Hub is essentially a venting forum.

 

Against this backdrop your letter was like a breath of fresh air and you richly deserve a response.

 

Thanks for supporting us for so many years.

 

ASG took over the management of these mass participation road events because they were simply not going to continue if we didn’t assume the financial responsibility for their presentation.

 

We felt that we would get a measure of commercial value out of the marketing while at the same time doing a service to the sport by ensuring that these road events continue. Four years down the line, we’re feeling very differently.

 

Not only do these events still run at a substantial financial loss to us, even with external sponsorship, but they present a greater challenge every year to keep our riders (customers) happy in difficult traffic and road management circumstances.  ASG Sport Solutions, the import/distribution company (who ironically stand to lose most from poor brand representation) ironically has been funding the lion share of these losses over the past 3-4 years.

 

Cycling now also falls within the event’s act and most municipalities have become compliant this year, which has drastically increased costs. Road events are now pre-luded by at least 5 JOC meetings. This has further increased the financial burden on these events with various service suppliers all having to attend these meetings every time.

 

Although respondents on our post event surveys on our road races have given us an average 8 out of 10 thus far (and this includes the survey after the timing challenges on the Tour of Good Hope), we feel that these events are damaging our brand image and if we carry our current sentiments into next year, we won’t present them again.

 

The races you refer to – Carnival City Macsteel Classic and Race for Victory – have the same challenges, but they are run by non-profit organisations. These organisations only present one race a year and draw on lots of volunteers from schools, churches and rotary organisations who do things as a once off.  They don’t have to run a business and still they struggle to make these events finish out of the red financially.

 

You’re welcome to reference both the organisers of these events with whom we’re regular contact. They, in fact, assist us with the organisation – a lot of you would have seen Merv’s friendly marshalling face on the road at our events.

 

The Lost City Classic isn’t an ASG event, but the long time organiser there, Johan du Toit, has also approached us to take over the running of the event because he’s out of ideas on how to try and ensure that the Cancer Association benefits well enough out of the event.

 

Regarding the Sondela SuperClassic, I took the decision to do manual timing because the numbers on the event (370) didn’t justify Race Tec doing timing.

 

This year we have been influenced by ineffective CSA management of the race calendar, negatively impacting on three of our events.  First up was the Walkerville Classic, which clashed with the Magalies Monster, then came the Satellite Classic, which was placed on the same weekend as the Amashova.

And then, to crown it all off, they placed the Radio Pretoria Classic on the same day as the Sondela SuperClassic - a first year event in the place of a Classic that we have built up over three years to 850 riders last year.

The Sondela SuperClassic traditionally attracted 80% of its entrants from Pretoria. With another race, which is well organised by the Jacaranda Club in Pretoria on the same day, it was obviously going to affect the numbers drastically.

 

Let’s be honest, the Sondela Classic is as nice race in a nice environment, but it’s very similar to any other safe and well run road race. So if you have the option not to have to drive 200km to do the event when you have an alternative, you won’t.

 

But we still pushed through with the organisation. We have never cancelled an event because we don’t want to let riders down. At Sondela there were a total of 370 riders.

 

The results are published and we are happy to refund all riders who feel they didn’t get a good service in the absence of RaceTec. Please send me a personal mail and I will ensure your entry fee gets refunded (wynand@asgworld.co.za)

 

Manual timing is not an uncommon occurrence and our ASG crew competently do manual timing at a few of our events where it doesn’t make sense to do Race Tec timing.

 

Remember that in the Tour de Boland timing was done by Western Province officials and not our crew.  The Tour of Good Hope 2016 will have electronic timing - we committed to this from the outset.

 

Results will be shared with Race Tec and form part of the ASG seeding index.

 

Regarding the value offering at our events. The simple answer is that our entry fee increases this year were to try and limit the losses on the events.  It's hard to swallow all these comments about 'all about money and making profit' when anyone that's try to put a race together and truly understands the cost involved will tell you differently in no time.

 

I don’t think the entry deal at Sondela was bad. The long distance entry was R335, but it included a High 5 racing bottle with product valued at R130 as well as some other smaller goodie bag stuff. We don’t get these free of charge although heavily subsidised from HIGH5 (via ASG Sport Solutions - our sister company).  This is done in order to provide some kind of ‘added value’ at a race that is already more expensive to present simply from a location point of view.

 

Thank you again for supporting our events for such a long time.

From the honest tone of your letter, it’s clear that you are someone who appreciates the late nights and long hours our crew endure to successfully deliver these events year upon-year.

 

Your comments are valid and I hope that this explanation has put things in perspective from our side.

 

Regards

 

I think it is a very good thread to have, enabling both parties to state their case and hopefully find a middle ground.

 

I'm not sure if it only fee but one thing bugs me a bit...

 

A few years back, A LOT of cyclist complained about goody bags being rubbish and that there is not much in them.

 

I didn't really care for the following reason.

You can only have so many bottles and other stuff they put in there.  If you get a bottle for each and every race, you won't have space to store them all.

 

I know ASG came to the party by giving what the entrants requested, but that came with a price.

 

R130 odd for a bottle?  If that amount I subtracted from the entry fee, more people will be happy with what they are paying to race.

 

You will never lose a cyclists' entry by not giving him/her a bottle or fancy goody bag, but you WILL lose them by increased race fees.

 

Let the people moan about not receiving a bottle.  They will still race!!!

 

I am sitting back, not being able to ride the races anymore because of the increased fee.  Yes there are MANY people that can pay these, but how many more is there that cannot?

 

Cycling has started growing tremendously and it starts from a school age.  These lads and youngsters will never be able to pay the fees.

 

Also when it comes to families riding together?  2 or 3 in a household riding?

The amounts add up

 

It might be just me, but I say for one day races, scrap the unnecessary SH*T and let us race. 

 

For the bashers, I do enjoy ASG's products and this is not a hate on them.  I am just looking from an objective view to try and keep the sport from growing

 

Peace out

[dracs]

Here's an example of some expenses at a typical race, showing a % of the total.

 

Admin/Race day expenses 4.9%

Advertising & Promotions 2.6%

Bank Charges 0.3%

Equipment Hire 3.8%

Federation levies 7.0%

Marshalls & Race officials 8.3%

Medals 7.2%

Medical Services 1.6%

Printing and Stationery 1.2%

Prize Money 6.9%

Prizes purchased 4.0%

Race Registration 13.5%

Race Insurance 0.7%

Refreshments & Hospitality 4.8%

T-shirts purchased 3.8%

Donations 1.7%

Toilet hire 3.2%

Traffic department 2.9%

Super Sport 26-min feature 9.6%

Race Numbers 2.7%

thanks Gerald,

 

I must say what jumps out for me is 7.2% for the medals...   compared against traffic department at 2.9% and at marshals at 8.3%... 

 

I recently saw a race (can't remember which one - may have been a running race) where at entry they note medal will be digital, and if you want a piece of metal to record your achievement you opt in at an additional cost of about R35.  For me this is a really sensible way to go as for the vast majority, I expect we would rather pay for safety than another piece of tin to fill up a drawer