Two cyclists killed in KZN

[Steven Knoetze (sk27)]

Might I remind you that the act of murder is premeditated, and needs to be proved as such. I highly doubt this guy (as stupid as he is for driving drunk) left the bar or wherever he was coming from with the intent to kill anyone.

As per the Oscar case murder can be proven if you knew that the result of your actions could kill somebody in the process. I think if the NPA wanted to they could very easily pursue a murder charge should the driver been found over the legal limit. Thats how I understand it at least.

[Fr33rider]

As per the Oscar case murder can be proven if you knew that the result of your actions could kill somebody in the process. I think if the NPA wanted to they could very easily pursue a murder charge should the driver been found over the legal limit. Thats how I understand it at least.

You are comparing apples with cupcakes. Two very different circumstances.

[Grogs]

Might I remind you that the act of murder is premeditated, and needs to be proved as such. I highly doubt this guy (as stupid as he is for driving drunk) left the bar or wherever he was coming from with the intent to kill anyone.

Premeditation isn't one of the elements of the crime of murder. Maybe in the US, but not in South Africa.

 

The relevant element here is intention - recall the trial of Oscar Pistorius and the debates around dolus eventualis (which is a type of intention).

 

The oke went out, got pissed and drove like a maniac. I don't think it would be difficult for the state to prove intention on this basis in this case.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Grogs

[Fr33rider]

Premeditation isn't one of the elements of the crime of murder. Maybe in the US, but not in South Africa.

 

The relevant element here is intention - recall the trial of Oscar Pistorius and the debates around dolus eventualis (which is a type of intention).

 

The oke went out, got pissed and drove like a maniac. I don't think it would be difficult for the state to prove intention on this basis in this case.

Premeditation Definition:

Specific intent to commit a crime for some period of time, however short, before the actual crime.

 

Clearly you're in the legal profession,so I'll just bow out of this matter of semantics.

[Grogs]

... and even if it isn't murder, sentencing for culpable homicide can be as serious as it s for murder.

 

Also, when is South Africa going to introduce strict liability (as is the case in many European countries)? If you kill a cyclist in your car, this would result in your being deemed to have intention (i.e. intention is imputed, irrespective of whether you were only negligent or not).

[Ryanpmb]

Premeditation isn't one of the elements of the crime of murder. Maybe in the US, but not in South Africa.

 

The relevant element here is intention - recall the trial of Oscar Pistorius and the debates around dolus eventualis (which is a type of intention).

 

The oke went out, got pissed and drove like a maniac. I don't think it would be difficult for the state to prove intention on this basis in this case.

 

 

Premeditation Definition:

Specific intent to commit a crime for some period of time, however short, before the actual crime.

 

Clearly you're in the legal profession,so I'll just bow out of this matter of semantics.

 

Chaps.

 

Two cyclists are dead.

 

Cyclists like you and I and everyone else on here taking part in this thread.

 

Let's keep the debate going and opinions coming but PLEASE (and I fear this is where this is heading) let's keep the hand bags in the cupboard. Please.

[Grogs]

100 percent Ryan.

 

Apologies if I appeared condescending or argumentative.

 

There is indeed a much bigger issue here.

 

Let's hope the authorities treat this case with the import that it requires.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Grogs

[Harryn]

As per the Oscar case murder can be proven if you knew that the result of your actions could kill somebody in the process. I think if the NPA wanted to they could very easily pursue a murder charge should the driver been found over the legal limit. Thats how I understand it at least.

It's not that simple, and it never is. In the much publicized case of Jub Jub, The accused were racing their Mini Coopers, high on narcotics. They mowed down 6 school kids, killing 4 maiming 2. The Regional court did indeed find them guilty of murder, using the now famous principle of dolus eventualis. But, on appeal, the murder convictions were set aside by the Joburg High Court, and culpable homicide convictions were imposed instead. Read the case here:

 

http://www.saflii.org/cgi-bin/disp.pl?file=za/cases/ZAGPJHC/2014/251.html&query=Murder%20motor%20collision

 

RIP cyclists. I hope that the justice system does not fail the fallen and their families.

[Ryanpmb]

100 percent Ryan.

 

Apologies if I appeared condescending or argumentative.

 

There is indeed a much bigger issue here.

 

Let's hope the authorities treat this case with the import that it requires.

No worries Grogs. Nothing wrong with hashing opinions out. This has just hit home with me though - so much so that tomorrow morning I'm probably riding on the trainer - and I simply didn't want to see a thread full of support turn into a mud slinging contest.

[eddy]

.

Edited February 8, 2016 by eddy

[RocknRolla]

Gotta agree with Ryan.

 

We can rather discuss the legality, semantics, road rules and anything else on another thread. This should be kept as a thread to pay our condolences to the cyclists, friends and families.

[Cadre]

The road was awfully quiet this morning. Normally Tuesdays and Thursdays are a beehive with cyclist abound. And then I crossed the Umgeni bridge via the Pedestrian crossing. Coming from the opposite direction was the TIB group, also on the pedestrian crossing. No more on the M4 with a following vehicle. This tragedy has hit everyone very hard. Heads up to the TIB group for setting a superb example following recent events. I have seen TIB in full swing and they are a very proficient bunch. Well done.  

[eccc whippet]

These 2 cyclist had the same passion...

 

CYCLING

PLANT BASE NUTRITION

DURBAN

 

lets focus on this.

 

what happens to the driver is not gona change anything...the courts will decide on his fate...if anyone would like to see him locked away for the rest of his life...it would be me...if jared was in the front group like he normally is...and richard wasnt were he normally rides at the back helping us slower riders...this driver would killed a lot more of us...ifs...buts...maybes are toooo late...the drivers fate will not change anything...saturday/sunday  at 5 am there will be other drunk driver heading home...the only thing i can see is gona changed is the cops stopping cyclist from riding on the M4...which i dont believe is a bad thing. 

 

a lot of comments about us being on the "freeway" and that we should be fined...big deal send me the fine...in fact i am considering starting a fund and paying the "fine" money for myself Jared and Richard into this account to be used to improve something to do with cycling even if it is just a tin of paint towards a line for a cycling lane.

 

we need to learn from this and focus on what these 2 cyclist would have wanted us to do...create a safer environment...instead of all leaving the road and heading to the bush.

 

as others have mentioned in this thread...stand up as a community and fight for a more cycling lane so that we can ride from Durban to Balito without the fear of being knocked over by motor vehicles...drunk or sober...cycling lanes we can actually ride in which arent full of potholes and trees growing across them or full of glass.

 

cycling is a growing sport...more and more people are getting into it...I hear the same concern from all of them how dangerous it is to ride on the road...that is why the beachfront has become so popular on the weekend...a safe environment.

 

we need to focus our energy on making it safer to cycle.

 

lets use Jared I'MPOSSIBLE challenge to get 180 cyclist together to do this 18000 m climb and make people more aware of cyclist on the road. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by isetech

[kosmonooit]

... and even if it isn't murder, sentencing for culpable homicide can be as serious as it s for murder.

 

Also, when is South Africa going to introduce strict liability (as is the case in many European countries)? If you kill a cyclist in your car, this would result in your being deemed to have intention (i.e. intention is imputed, irrespective of whether you were only negligent or not).

 

 

That's one step that can/should be taken, people drive badly with impunity ...

[Popit]

Firstly my condolances to family , friends and fellow cyclists who have been directly affected by this tragedy .

 

Secondly , just to comment on the discussion held on 702 yesterday about this tragedy .

Seems like the average motorist on our roads thinks  the 2 cyclists got what they deserved , and that the motorist who hit them  , well just bad luck to him .

My blood was boiling by the arrogance , insensitivity and general , cyclists are trash , attitude .

 

We as cyclists are partly to blame for creating this impression , however as a cyclist for well over 25 years , I have yet to meet the cyclist who WANTS to get run down by a vehicle .

 

The amount of bail required has nothing to do with the severity of the incident . It is how it gets prosecuted and dealt with in court that is most important .

 

1% of me does feel sorry for the driver , because no matter what the outcome , he WILL live with this for the rest of his life . 99% of me says hang the f...er by his gonads .

 

To the 2 who passed away RIP !!

[alsoran]

 

1% of me does feel sorry for the driver , because no matter what the outcome , he WILL live with this for the rest of his life .

 

No sympathy for driver. He chose to drink, he chose to drive, he chose to speed. He needs to live with his choices. The families will be affected lot more than him.

 

RIP riders.