Hunting - yes or no?

[Chris_]

When I was hunting back in the day. My roommate and I would travel to his farm once a year to get our own meat. When I about how much water we must have saved as well as fuel emissions and other wastes like plastic by not buying meat in the store I can't help but think that hunting have a positive effect on the environment.  The animals that we hunted were free roaming, meaning that there were no fences to keep them in. The fences were about 3-4 feet in height big enough to contain sheep but no match for Kudu or Springbuck.

 

In the offseason, we would drive through to pick up lamb chops from his farm. So we hardly ever bought meat for a period of about 4 years. 

 

Nowadays my wife and I eat very little meat and have an 80% veggie diet.  When we move to Canada I will take up fishing and maybe hunting once I am legally eligible to buy a rifle. 

 

I've seen lambs jolling in fields. I have no idea how you would (shoot?) kill  those guys. I'm not trying to provoke you here, but it makes me sad. That's the honest truth.

[Odinson]

So, Leeubok, before this current tangent, I responded to some of your posts. What's your feedback? 

[Odinson]

Deleted - 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Odinson

[MTBeer]

With meat prices what they are in SA, very soon we will all have to be vegan.

[Fruity]

With meat prices what they are in SA, very soon we will all have to be vegan.

Chicken and pork is still fairly affordable at the butcheries

[leeubok]

 

I agree in part with you. 

 

You're absolutely right when you say that when people often think of 'conservation' that they usually only think of (large) mammals. Conservation should ensure that all of the fauna and flora of an ecosystem remain in a natural state, allowing itself to self-regulate. 

 

I'm curious as to on what you base your claim that "by keeping that farm in a natural state it contributes to the conservation of fauna and flora". Is this a general assumption? Are you stating that this is the case on ranches practicing ecotourism, intensive breeding, live sales, trophy- and biltong hunting or culling? Or any combination of the aforementioned? Are you claiming that all/most ranches are in a 'natural state'? 

 

How do you square conservation with many farms who do not have self-sustaining populations of ungulates and other large mammals, where predator control is in place and where supplemental feeding and veterinarian care is provided? 

 

Well, firstly you have to define natural state. I'd say it is a piece of property representative of the larger area and has not been altered by man. In other words, you'd find the trees, grass etc on that farm that is representative of that biome/vegetation type/eco type or whatever term you'd like to use. Like I said before, do not stare blindly at the big and hairies. Protecting plants is also conservation!!! if you have a wetland, or river, or sensitive vegetation type on your property, and you are not altering it, you are conserving it! As long as your game stock is not over grazing/browsing it of course. And by default, if you protect the vegetation and water sources on your property, biodiversity (not just the large mammals) can thrive. 

 

If the property is fenced, ungulate populations will most likely need to be controlled. Whether you like it or not. Leaving them because they are too cute and because hunting is an abomination will lead to the vegetation getting trashed, and in the end the bokkies will die of hunger. So, again, the farmer needs $$ to run the farm so it would make sense to hunt rather than cull. If there are predators such as lion on the property, the same principals apply. They also need to be managed. Predators do not keep your ungulate populations under control, so even if they are present, you still need to manage them. 

 

I think the problem here is that you okes are staring blindly at the bad examples. Yes there are game farm owners who do not manage their farms wisely. Okes who use unethical hunting methods, over populate their ungulates or over utilise in a hunting season (follow a put and take model), blindly exterminate predators such as jackal and caracal etc etc etc. But I can tell you now that for every 1 bad oke there are 2 good okes out there! Who care deeply for their farm and the wildlife on it.

[MTBeer]

Chicken and pork is still fairly affordable at the butcheries

True. Especially pork.

[leeubok]

 

I feel the need to call you (Leeubok, forkie and the rest) out on the dishonest catch-22 that you present: either allow wildlife ranching (incl. hunting) and have conservation or agriculture and no conservation. 

 

Looking at the data, you can see the following: 

 

 

Mixed_farms.PNG

 

Thus, painting ranchers as reformed farmers, striving for conservation, is being disingenuous. 

 

I'm sure you're aware of the history of wildlife ranching in SA and the monumental turning point that came with the Game Theft Act (1991). The reason that so many farmers abandoned traditional agriculture was primarily because it would become more lucrative to breed and kill animals for the purpose of selling or hunting them. 

 

 

 

The bold bit refer. Odinson, surely it is not that difficult to comprehend. Compare a 1000 ha mono-culture such as a mielie field with a 1000 ha game farm. Doesn't matter if the owner is an angel from heaven or a low life scum of the earth hunter. In which 1000 ha do you think is biodiversity going to be the highest? 

[J∆kk∆ls]

I've seen lambs jolling in fields. I have no idea how you would (shoot?) kill  those guys. I'm not trying to provoke you here, but it makes me sad. That's the honest truth.

No worries I don't feel provoked and I am happy that there are people that feel sad for animals. Just know that I also respect life even though I am a meat eater. It is not Black and white. 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I've seen lambs jolling in fields. I have no idea how you would (shoot?) kill  those guys. I'm not trying to provoke you here, but it makes me sad. That's the honest truth.

They're quite cute, I will admit. That's what makes them taste even better. But they are destructive feckers, I'll tell you that. A friend of mine had a mother and lamb on her very small holding, and they break everything. 

 

Braaing those tjops will be very satisfying, I'd imagine. And the knowledge that they've had a good life compared to most lambs / sheep is good. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Cptmayhem

[Goodbadugly]

They're quite cute, I will admit. That's what makes them taste even better. But they are destructive feckers, I'll tell you that. A friend of mine had a mother and lamb on her very small holding, and they break everything. 

 

Braaing those tjops will be very satisfying, I'd imagine. And the knowledge that they've had a good life compared to most lambs / sheep is good. 

A happy lamb is a tasty lamb.    

[Fruity]

I've visited a sheep farm or two in the past, and the wife shares the same sentiments as me when it comes to, "how could you eat something that looks so cute". The Mrs actually said to me the one day that if we were to own a farm, whether the farm has sheep or pigs on it, she would name the lambs or the piglets and wouldn't be able to eat them when they're ready to be eaten.

 

When we visit the butchery (and I think this is the case with most of us meat eaters), we don't think about the cute little lammetjies or varkies, we just think how good that pork or lamb tjop would look on the braai or in the pan, and in my opinion there's nothing wrong with that, if you're a meat eater.

[Goodbadugly]

I've visited a sheep farm or two in the past, and the wife shares the same sentiments as me when it comes to, "how could you eat something that looks so cute". The Mrs actually said to me the one day that if we were to own a farm, whether the farm has sheep or pigs on it, she would name the lambs or the piglets and wouldn't be able to eat them when they're ready to be eaten.

 

When we visit the butchery (and I think this is the case with most of us meat eaters), we don't think about the cute little lammetjies or varkies, we just think how good that pork or lamb tjop would look on the braai or in the pan, and in my opinion there's nothing wrong with that, if you're a meat eater.

Farmers don't keep sheep because they are cute.

I like reading threads like these. Lengthy discussions from global warming, flat earthers, deforestation, and global extinction. 

Every party writing his PhD. And getting a distinction.

And not a single vote won for the other party. Like socialists defending socialism and capitalists defending capitalism. 

[Fruity]

Farmers don't keep sheep because they are cute.

I like reading threads like these. Lengthy discussions from global warming, flat earthers, deforestation, and global extinction. 

Every party writing his PhD. And getting a distinction.

And not a single vote won for the other party. Like socialists defending socialism and capitalists defending capitalism. 

Oh I understand that, fully.

 

Nothing better than A-grade lamb tjops on the braai.

[DJR]

The bold bit refer. Odinson, surely it is not that difficult to comprehend. Compare a 1000 ha mono-culture such as a mielie field with a 1000 ha game farm. Doesn't matter if the owner is an angel from heaven or a low life scum of the earth hunter. In which 1000 ha do you think is biodiversity going to be the highest? 

Very graphic! Almost too graphic!   

[Odinson]

The bold bit refer. Odinson, surely it is not that difficult to comprehend. Compare a 1000 ha mono-culture such as a mielie field with a 1000 ha game farm. Doesn't matter if the owner is an angel from heaven or a low life scum of the earth hunter. In which 1000 ha do you think is biodiversity going to be the highest? 

 

The issue I had is that it is being represented as binary. It's either one or the other. However, that isn't the case. 

 

The fact is that we collectively do not know to what extent private game ranching contributes to biodiversity conservation. There is no data available. The same is true for agricultural land. No one knows the contribution of traditional agriculture to biodiversity conservation. I'm not being argumentative to push an agenda - that is the truth of the situation. Therefore, if you make a claim one way or the other, you're basing yourself on anecdote and personal experience. 

 

And again, you're being disingenuous in your position. I quoted the data which shows that 45% of all game ranchers also farm with livestock, crops or a combination of all three. So, there are ~4500 game farms that have cleared natural land for livestock or crop production. Factor in the 55% of ranchers who breed intensively and the amount of cleared areas and camps needed for that and now tell me how much of those farms are pristine land dedicated to conservation.