The Veganism Thread

[Escapee..]

Saying "bring home the bacon" must be a big no no in your house Odi?

[MintSauce]

Plus , as Gen mentioned earlier , food is not just consumed for its nutrition . Taste is a massive factor determining what you eat , and sorry for the vegans , there is no way you will be able to match or even get close to the taste of "normal" food for the masses with vegan alternatives .

 

 

If you tell me that you have truthfully tried for more than 1 or 2 meals, more like 1 or 2 months, to cook only vegan meals, then I’ll see your statement as having credibility.

 

 

I was a COMPLETE & TOTAL meat lover! Most of my friends reckoned I cooked the best steak they'd ever eaten. I use to eat at least 2 packets of bacon a week. I once cooked a dinner that included bacon in all three courses. I ADORED quality cured meats! Steak pies, Lefty's ribs, boerewors, hot-dogs, burgers, prego rolls, schnitzel, espetada! I would book business trips to JHB to coincide with Espetada Thursday at a Portuguese restaurant close to my biggest then client.

 

 

I was convinced that, in the words of Jeremy Clarkson, it was an animal's duty to be on my plate at supper time. I saw meat as dinner and veggies as a sideshow that didn't really warrant much attention.

 

 

And there-in lies the problem. Perspective. My viewpoint started shifting about 12 months ago when I first properly started questioning my habits. I’ve been vegan since June this year. I am eating more tasteful food than I ever have in my life. It took and continues to take effort to find new and different ways to prepare the foods that I personally never really paid much attention to. Just in the same way that it took years and years to learn how to cook a meat-base diet well and tastefully.

 

If you look past the one-dimensional view a lot of people have of food, you realize that there is likely a bigger world of opportunity for taste, texture and adventure in vegetables. What you cannot do is expect to radically change a fundamental component of your everyday, lifelong, complex habits and then expect it to just be easy and simple and straightforward off the bat.

 

[geomark]

Sacked vegan claims discrimination in landmark case

 

A landmark tribunal will decide whether veganism is a "philosophical belief" akin to a religion.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46385597

[Chris_]

Saying "bring home the bacon" must be a big no no in your house Odi?

 

Stop flogging a dead horse with these silly comments 

[Odinson]

Vegan by choice is very much a first world thing .

 

In most of South Africa ( excluding our major cities ) and countries like us you will unfortunately have a tough time eating out or even making your own meal ( decent tasty meal that's not repetitive every day ) and stay true vegan .

To get the correct amount of protein and nutrients from your meal on the budget that most South Africans live on is currently not possible on a strict vegan diet .

It's a simple scale of economics ; the fewer demand there is for a certain food , the more it will cost to produce/supply . So if one day more and more people become vegan ,and demand picks up , more people will produce for that demand and more restaurants and shops will cater for a vegan lifestyle - which will make it more accessible and affordable .

But we are a very very long way from there , and with our economy as it is , probably will never get there ? 

Plus , as Gen mentioned earlier , food is not just consumed for its nutrition . Taste is a massive factor determining what you eat , and sorry for the vegans , there is no way you will be able to match or even get close to the taste of "normal" food for the masses with vegan alternatives .

 

I would have to disagree. 

 

Most third world countries have diets centered around getting the majority of their caloric intake from plant foods. Reaching your daily targets on a plant-based diet is very easy and does not require $$$. Have a look at this pretty bare bones 1-day meals I put into Cronometer. Pretty cool, right? 

 

 

As I mentioned before, many folks see veganism as 'restrictive' as they look at it through the lens of how easily they can access pre-made meals, whether it's a fancy(ish) Woolies pasta or a garage pie. In that sense, it could be more difficult, but if you want to eat for health and to prosper, you'll avoid those types of rubbish foods anyway. 

 

On the whole taste aspect, I'd say reserve judgment until you've tasted some of the options like Beyond Meats and the Impossible Burger. It's eerily similar in smell, taste and texture. 

[Odinson]

Sacked vegan claims discrimination in landmark case

 

A landmark tribunal will decide whether veganism is a "philosophical belief" akin to a religion.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46385597

 

 

Saw this. Could be a very interesting judgment. 

[Odinson]

Saying "bring home the bacon" must be a big no no in your house Odi?

 

I'm so vegan I don't even call my wife 'honey'. 

 

"Agave syrup, I'm home!"

[Odinson]

 

If you tell me that you have truthfully tried for more than 1 or 2 meals, more like 1 or 2 months, to cook only vegan meals, then I’ll see your statement as having credibility.

 

 

 

I was a COMPLETE & TOTAL meat lover! Most of my friends reckoned I cooked the best steak they'd ever eaten. I use to eat at least 2 packets of bacon a week. I once cooked a dinner that included bacon in all three courses. I ADORED quality cured meats! Steak pies, Lefty's ribs, boerewors, hot-dogs, burgers, prego rolls, schnitzel, espetada! I would book business trips to JHB to coincide with Espetada Thursday at a Portuguese restaurant close to my biggest then client.

 

 

 

I was convinced that, in the words of Jeremy Clarkson, it was an animal's duty to be on my plate at supper time. I saw meat as dinner and veggies as a sideshow that didn't really warrant much attention.

 

 

 

And there-in lies the problem. Perspective. My viewpoint started shifting about 12 months ago when I first properly started questioning my habits. I’ve been vegan since June this year. I am eating more tasteful food than I ever have in my life. It took and continues to take effort to find new and different ways to prepare the foods that I personally never really paid much attention to. Just in the same way that it took years and years to learn how to cook a meat-base diet well and tastefully.

 

If you look past the one-dimensional view a lot of people have of food, you realize that there is likely a bigger world of opportunity for taste, texture and adventure in vegetables. What you cannot do is expect to radically change a fundamental component of your everyday, lifelong, complex habits and then expect it to just be easy and simple and straightforward off the bat.

 

 

 

[Milkman]

 

If you tell me that you have truthfully tried for more than 1 or 2 meals, more like 1 or 2 months, to cook only vegan meals, then I’ll see your statement as having credibility.

 

 

 

I was a COMPLETE & TOTAL meat lover! Most of my friends reckoned I cooked the best steak they'd ever eaten. I use to eat at least 2 packets of bacon a week. I once cooked a dinner that included bacon in all three courses. I ADORED quality cured meats! Steak pies, Lefty's ribs, boerewors, hot-dogs, burgers, prego rolls, schnitzel, espetada! I would book business trips to JHB to coincide with Espetada Thursday at a Portuguese restaurant close to my biggest then client.

 

 

 

I was convinced that, in the words of Jeremy Clarkson, it was an animal's duty to be on my plate at supper time. I saw meat as dinner and veggies as a sideshow that didn't really warrant much attention.

 

 

 

And there-in lies the problem. Perspective. My viewpoint started shifting about 12 months ago when I first properly started questioning my habits. I’ve been vegan since June this year. I am eating more tasteful food than I ever have in my life. It took and continues to take effort to find new and different ways to prepare the foods that I personally never really paid much attention to. Just in the same way that it took years and years to learn how to cook a meat-base diet well and tastefully.

 

If you look past the one-dimensional view a lot of people have of food, you realize that there is likely a bigger world of opportunity for taste, texture and adventure in vegetables. What you cannot do is expect to radically change a fundamental component of your everyday, lifelong, complex habits and then expect it to just be easy and simple and straightforward off the bat.

 

 

 

 

If you read my statement again , you will see that my point was not about individual people ( including myself ) but more "for the masses " . I might have the means to go and shop for the latest nice spice and fresh veggies , but 80% of our country might not ? 

[Prince]

 

 

"Agave syrup, I'm home!"

 Whew at least the Tequila is still on the menu!

[Escapee..]

Stop flogging a dead horse with these silly comments 

 

 

Beef, you dont want none so dont start none

[Patchelicious]

I would have to disagree. 

 

Most third world countries have diets centered around getting the majority of their caloric intake from plant foods. Reaching your daily targets on a plant-based diet is very easy and does not require $$$. Have a look at this pretty bare bones 1-day meals I put into Cronometer. Pretty cool, right? 

 

Meal 1 day.PNG

 

As I mentioned before, many folks see veganism as 'restrictive' as they look at it through the lens of how easily they can access pre-made meals, whether it's a fancy(ish) Woolies pasta or a garage pie. In that sense, it could be more difficult, but if you want to eat for health and to prosper, you'll avoid those types of rubbish foods anyway. 

 

On the whole taste aspect, I'd say reserve judgment until you've tasted some of the options like Beyond Meats and the Impossible Burger. It's eerily similar in smell, taste and texture. 

 

Do you believe this is by choice?

[forkie]

Beef, you dont want none so dont start none

dont mince your words

[Odinson]

If you read my statement again , you will see that my point was not about individual people ( including myself ) but more "for the masses " . I might have the means to go and shop for the latest nice spice and fresh veggies , but 80% of our country might not ? 

 

You're on to something, but I don't think that it is just a case of economics. There is also a cultural aspect and simple preferences. 

 

This study look at the nutrition profile of people in rural KZN. In short, many people in KZN eat diets rich in sugars, fats (incl. fatty animal flesh) and refined carbs. Their diets fall short in key areas, resulting in increased disease risk and both over-and under nutrition and stunted child development. 

 

Food and Nutrition Insecurity in Selected Rural Communities of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa—Linking Human Nutrition and Agriculture

 

Some extracts: 

 

 

Abstract: Lack of access to nutritious and balanced diets remains a major impediment to the health and well-being of people living in rural areas. The study utilizes a qualitative systematic approach to conduct an environmental scan and review of scientific literature of studies conducted in South Africa, specifically KwaZulu-Natal (KZN). Availability and access to nutritious, diverse and balanced diets were identified as key constraints for achieving food and nutrition security as well as for human health and well-being. This has led to both under- and over-nutrition, with the former, in particular stunting, affecting children under 5 years. A high incidence of over-nutrition, both overweight and obesity, was observed among black African females. In South Africa, poor people rely mostly on social grants and cannot afford a balanced diet. Under these circumstances, agriculture could be used to increase availability and access to diverse and nutritious foods for the attainment of a balanced diet. The wider use of traditional vegetable crops and pulses could improve availability and access to healthy and locally available alternatives. The promotion of household and community food gardens, and the use of nutrient dense crops with low levels of water use, i.e., high nutritional water productivity, offers prospects for addressing malnutrition in poor rural areas.

 

 

Dietary diversity is a long-term strategy used to assist in combating micronutrient deficiencies in South Africa [88]. Dietary diversity involves adding a variety of foods to the diet such as fruit and vegetables, legumes, starch and animal products [89]. In South Africa, KZN is the province with the highest energy, protein, fat carbohydrates and fibre intake, however, micronutrient intake is poor [19]. Labadarios [14] found that one in two children consumed half of the RDA for micronutrients; calcium, iron, zinc, selenium, vitamins A, D, C and E, riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B6 and folic acid. Unfortunately, the majority of people living in tribal and informal urban areas in South Africa, specifically KZN, have a diet that lacks dietary diversity. They consume foods that lack nutrients and are deficient in energy. The commonly consumed foods in South Africa are mealie meal, white sugar, tea, brown bread, non-dairy creamer, brick margarine, chicken meat, full cream milk and dark green leafy vegetables [19,53]. A study conducted in a peri-urban site in Marianhill, Pinetown by Faber et al. [90] showed that commonly consumed foods were sugar, maize meal porridge, bread, rice, cordial squash, hard margarine, tea and legumes, similar to other studies. On the other hand, the foods that were consumed by more than half the participants in rural KZN were maize meal and bread [48]. From this it is evident that many of these diets are low in eggs, legumes, animal products and vitamin A-rich fruit and vegetables, due to the high costs of these foods.

[Grease_Monkey]

Grew up there too, with some breaks in-between. If you went to Richardia or the Afrikaans high school, we might even know each other.

I also had some breaks inbetween - '00, then '03 - '05, then 07' - '11.

 

Was in Grantleigh the first two times, then a boarding school in Maritzburg for the last stint (matriculated '09) then went to varsity, but parents stayed in RB till 2011.

 

Maybe our paths crossed somewhere but I think you may be a bit older than me.

[Odinson]

Do you believe this is by choice?

 

It differs from region to region. Read up on the so-called 'Blue Zones'. 

 

There are scientist who advocate for industrializing countries to make attempts at preventing their diets 'Westernizing' (i.e. eating more animal products, more refined carbs, fewer fruits and veggies, etc.). 

 

Have a read here. It's a long one, but very interesting: 

 

Plant-based diets are traditional in developing countries:

21st century challenges for better nutrition and health

 

 

Restoration of plant-based diets in industrialized

countries

There are compelling practical and intellectual reasons for

populations in developing countries to maintain a low animal-

product diet for both the health benefits that might

accrue and the environmental problems that can be avoided.

Despite advances in life-expectancy in developing countries,

it is still the industrialized countries in which the rates of

prevalence of chronic diseases are highest. Obesity is a

worldwide epidemic.87 A recent United Nations report found

an equal number of the world’s population to have undernutrition

and overnutrition in terms of anthropometric classification.

It is the developed countries that contribute

disproportionately to obesity. Sedentarism is a way of life for

the urban middle and upper classes, which benefit from the

technological advances in robotics and informatics and work

before their computer screens.

Not only does under-expenditure of energy but also overconsumption

of calories contribute to the obesity epidemic.

What are the factors that promote the consumption of diets

rich in fat and in animal-based foods? Hedonic preferences

are often cited.88 Sweet tastes and the flavor of fat are much

more appealing to the palate. The prestige factor of animal

foods dates back centuries. Why was Sherwood Forest a

game preserve of the nobles from which the serfs were

excluded from hunting? Hedonism aside, there are political

reasons why the notion of ‘peasant fare’ would be appealing

or distasteful. Anderson and Lean, nutrition professionals,

comment on the evolution of dietary intake in Scotland:

Until the nineteenth century the ‘traditional’ Scottish fare of

oats, barley, kail, milk and locally grown produce was the stuff

of legends, nurturing a nation of giants wielding claymores and

tossing cabers. It has become a long-forgotten menu,

superseded, in the course of the past century as shipping and

trade boomed, by an abundance of imported wheat for white

bread, syrup, treacle and jam from the colonies, and a surfeit of

meat from more recent alterations in farming practices.89

It is no coincidence that the term ‘peasant’ in contemporary

English usage has become a synonym for ‘pauper.’

Thorsten Veblen, the Norwegian political economist, applied

the term ‘conspicuous consumption’ to consumer behavior.

One way that an elite can differentiate themselves from the

lower classes is to indulge themselves in items considered to

be of a luxury nature. For those of lesser economic means to

avoid the social brand of poverty is to aspire to identify with

luxury items above their means. This places a social premium

on consumption of sweets and meats beyond the hedonic

issues. In addition to these historic sociologic issues, the

same constellation of urbanization, globalization of trade,

crop cultivation policies and environmental pollution risks,

which were discussed earlier, are even more entrenched factors

in developed countries.

The first response of humankind in the face of incontrovertible

evidence of harm from a hedonic practice is to continue

the practice but to find an antidote. This was the

situation with tobacco smoking and the efforts to nullify the

carcinogenic consequences with beta-carotene. The folly of

that approach has recently been recounted by Cooper et al.90

Nevertheless, a similar initial response may be at play across

the range of health-seeking behaviors. We want to have our

cake and eat it too by taking something else (additional) that 

will nullify the consequence of what is already producing

damage. This explains, in part, the rise in the consumption of

dietary supplements as combinations of isolated vitamins and

phytochemicals, and herbal and botanical concoctions. The

optimistic interpretation of this behavior is that a recognition

of the harmful potential of current Western diets has penetrated

the consumers. However, they seem willing to wager

that continuing their exposure to the ‘poison’ (the noxious

elements in the diet), can be counteracted by self-supplementation

with isolated chemicals as the ‘antidote’. Borchers

et al.91 have made some important observations in this

respect:

It should by now be clear that isolated chemical constituents of

plant extracts seldom have the same effect as the complex

mixture of bioactive molecules present in whole plant (or plant

part) extracts.91

Not enough evidence is available on the validity of this

approach, but it is my suspicion that it will be no better than

that for controlling the negative consequences of the offending

diets than were carotenoids for tobacco. At that point, a

more comprehensive and integral solution of adopting the

whole regimen may become the beacon.

The issues of availability, accessibility, dietary habits and

preferences interact and intertwine in the goal of consuming

a low chronic-disease risk and nutritious diet. We have found

it useful to conceive the concept of integral and discrete

cuisines as an approach to merging the traditions of developing

countries to the health benefits of the developed countries.

In fact, CeSSIAM is currently involved in a four-nation,

multicentric study entitled ‘Concordance with the Provisions

of the WCRF/AICR Guidelines on Prevention of Cancer in

Northern Europe and MesoAmerica: Comparative Insight for

Cancer Risk and its Reduction’, involving Scotland, the

Netherlands, Mexico and Guatemala, and sponsored by the

World Cancer Research Fund (WCRF) of London. The central

notion is to compare and contrast the concordance of

free-living populations with a set of 14 guidelines laid out in

the WCRF publication, Food, Nutrition and Prevention of

Cancer: A Global Perspective92 (Table 4). The expressed

hypotheses are: (i) that the rural populations will have a consumption

pattern more concordant with the plant-based principles

of the guidelines; and (ii) that the general fare of the

developing countries (Mexico, Guatemala) will be more concordant

than that of the developed country sites (UK, Netherlands).

Preliminary work with food-frequency data from a

rural Guatemalan setting suggests that these hypotheses will

be confirmed.29 Using the results of 269 adults in the Santa

Rosa Province, we found that some of the provisions of the

WCRF Guidelines could not be assessed. Among those that

were assessable, compliance with the provisions of consuming

high amounts of carbohydrate and low quantities of fat,

red meat and ethanol were fulfilled in most of the population.

The diet was largely plant based. When the Dietary Guidelines

for Americans for the 1995–2000 period93 were applied

to the Guatemalan diets, we found favorable patterns of consumption

from the grain, vegetable and fruit group. Red meat

consumption was within the recommended limits, but milkgroup

intakes were low.30 The Guatemalans were a bit

immoderate in their use of sugar, but alcohol consumption

was low. More importantly, for developed country strategies,

the menus defined in the Yucatan and Guatemalan highlands

might contribute specific guidance for the preparation of

meals consonant with the principles of cancer avoidance.

There is some promising indication that the notion of

embracing exotic cuisines might be viable. Relating to my

past Australian experience, I have visited the Sunday

brunches in international tourist hotels in Melbourne, in

which the Sunday buffet brunch fare includes a selection of

the delicacies of the Aboriginal diet. It offers witchetty grubs

and a selection of cuts of marsupials along with desert roots

and plants. One can go out and ‘eat Aboriginal’. Similarly, in

the diversity of that cosmopolitan city, there are restaurants

with the traditional cuisine of Thailand, Korea, Japan, all

regions of China, Greece, Serbia and Croatia among others.

For hedonic reasons, however, an emphasis on the meat and

animal products of the regions is featured on the menus.

Nevertheless, the option to ‘eat Chinese’, ‘eat Korean’ and

‘eat Serbian’, etc., is available. However, the habitual fare of

the typical Anglo-Celtic Melburnian appears to be rich in the

fried foods of pub fare and the steak and kidney pie, vestiges

of the foodways of the seat of the Commonwealth. In an

incremental way, it would be preferable for the average Australian

to have a constant fare of any of the Asian or Balkan

cuisines than the one they are currently choosing.

Even when the tasty, congruent plant-based cuisines that

reflect the best current evidence on disease prevention are

identified, catalogued and placed into recipe books, there still

remain a series of barriers to their adoption in industrialized

populations. Firstly, the ingredients may be unavailable (or if

available, they may be prohibitively expensive and hence

unaccessible). Moreover, the use of the ingredients and the

nature of the recipes may be unfamiliar to food preparers.

Finally, there may be antinutritional chemicals, toxicants or

contaminants in these foods that traditional preparation practices

have overcome in the course of cultural evolution.

These practices must be carried over as the dishes are prepared

for ‘Western’ tables.

If one accepts this premise, then the task of motivators

and educators would be to introduce the firm practice of

selecting integral cuisines of developing countries. That of

food technologists and commercial food companies is to prepare

and package the ingredients and preprepared dishes in

attractive and economical forms. That of nutritionists and

food scientists would be to resolve the aforementioned barriers

and address two additional detractors: (i) gastric cancer

carcinogenicity; and (ii) low nutrient density and bioavailability.

These latter two endeavors are reminiscent of

what must also be done in those nations from which the diets

are indigenous. I would conjecture that squeezing the time

out of current lifestyle schedules to prepare these meals in the

home would be an impossible barrier. Free time might be

better spent in vigorous and conditioning exercises in one’s

own home gym or swimming pool to create the demand for

energy than in the kitchenette preparing the exotic recipes

from equally exotic ingredients. Hence, as anathema to traditional

‘dining-room table’ family values as it might appear, it

will be in restaurants away from home, in catered ready-toeat

foods ordered at home, or in processed foods popped into

the microwave ovens at home that will allow the cultural

transfer to become a reality in industrialized societies. The

restaurant industry and prepared foods industry would be the

engines for the availability of the nouveau ‘concordant’

cuisine to the population. Table 5 projects a futuristic weekday

menu for principal meals that incorporates the concept of

plant-based cuisine borrowed from other cultures.