The Veganism Thread

[Patchelicious]

There you go Vegan-baiting again... All the good ones use animal rennets too.

You’d think. But tomorrow is a meat free day can you believe it.

[Odinson]

No, at 12pm tomorrow I’ll hopefully be eating a cheese sandwich on the summit of Ben Nevis in Scotland.

I’m sure Ben’s a top bloke. Enjoy.

[Edition 507]

I don’t wear leather shoes. I drive an electric car. I don’t eat any animal products and I live a vegan lifestyle.

 

If that makes you feel good about yourself then that's awesome.

 

What makes me feel good about myself is that I know my leather shoes that I wear are 100% biodegradable.

[Kranswurm]

Nothing special. I'd like to believe that if someone treated you/your bike brand/your family etc in a similar manner to the way that vegans get treated here that I would also defend you.

 

How is it that religion and veganism seem to be open season here on the hub? They cop way more flak than any other subject. Expect maybe Specialised.

Our circle of friends and family from way back never discussed religion politics guns and hunting and similar subjects at dinner

Veganism on here can be lumped in with them

[Beard]

[Odinson]

For anyone looking for some inspiration: 

 

https://chooseveg.com/blog/30-vegan-dinners-in-30-minutes-or-less/?fbclid=IwAR0ZB8UbwksaFFL325mgoqUMRfY_aapiugcxowkN4Z7Q525l3c8Y8Q2BmQE

[Odinson]

New publication is Scientific Reports (Nature) 

 

Haven't read it yet, but seems interesting. Will reserve comments until I've had the time to work through it. 

 

Environmentally Optimal, Nutritionally Sound, Protein and Energy Conserving Plant Based Alternatives to U.S. Meat

 

 

 

Abstract

Because meat is more resource intensive than vegetal protein sources, replacing it with efficient plant alternatives is potentially desirable, provided these alternatives prove nutritionally sound. We show that protein conserving plant alternatives to meat that rigorously satisfy key nutritional constraints while minimizing cropland, nitrogen fertilizer (Nr) and water use and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions exist, and could improve public health. We develop a new methodology for identifying nutritional constraints whose satisfaction by plant eaters is challenging, disproportionately shaping the optimal diets, singling out energy, mass, monounsaturated fatty acids, vitamins B3,12 and D, choline, zinc, and selenium. By replacing meat with the devised plant alternatives—dominated by soy, green pepper, squash, buckwheat, and asparagus—Americans can collectively eliminate pastureland use while saving 35–50% of their diet related needs for cropland, Nr, and GHG emission, but increase their diet related irrigation needs by 15%. While widely replacing meat with plants is logistically and culturally challenging, few competing options offer comparable multidimensional resource use reduction.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-46590-1?fbclid=IwAR0Z7hhGSpZ8iYDbIcXvzGXhSJDYM5BpwNt_s1IhzJ7yMa4TmLLtbiZeAIo

Edited August 20, 2019 by Odinson

[Chris_]

Listened to a podcast this morning which mentioned stuff I’ve often thought about before. Its by the guys from No Meat Athlete Radio, they’re ultra runners and long term vegans so they cover lots of stuff I’m now more interested in. The episode is called ‘Is the Plant-Based Meat Movement Bad for Veganism?’

 

Its certainly not the best podcast series ito structure and direction, it’s a lot more conversational but they do touch on some very interesting points. 

 

They acknowledge the rise in plant-based ‘meats’ in the world. Which is seen as a positive and easy window into the vegan diet world. They were mostly talking about the rise in notoriety wrt vegan foods thanks to Beyond Meats and Impossible Foods. So yes, they’re mostly fast foods. Which while may be healthier than the meat counterpart is certainly much kinder to animals and the environment. 

 

The debate though is whether the face of rising vegan food culture is becoming too ‘unhealthy’ as it usually is accompanied by fries, a coke and served through a window.

 

Its an interesting thought. We often use a service called UCook, you select meals online and they deliver a box of x meals worth of fresh ingredients with recipes. Usually stunning meals, stuff we would never think of making when staring at an isle in the shops ourselves. 

 

Sometimes though, we make the meal and its just starchy, saucy and while mostly veg, it doesn’t actually feel ‘healthy’. I just want to grab a handful of spinach or leafy greens at the end of it. So I actually agree that ‘vegan food’ may be getting a little misidentified (?) misrepresented (?) the way bigger shops are offering them. I know its been said here many times that strictly speaking vegan food may not necessarily be the healthiest option in the world but it is the main reason I changed diets a while back. 

 

Maybe plant-based and veganism are too closely aligned, maybe its not overly about the health aspect and I’m the one putting the bias on it, maybe people don’t want anything other than ‘fast food’ type substitutes, I don’t know, just a ramble…

[Odinson]

 

Listened to a podcast this morning which mentioned stuff I’ve often thought about before. Its by the guys from No Meat Athlete Radio, they’re ultra runners and long term vegans so they cover lots of stuff I’m now more interested in. The episode is called ‘Is the Plant-Based Meat Movement Bad for Veganism?’

 

Its certainly not the best podcast series ito structure and direction, it’s a lot more conversational but they do touch on some very interesting points. 

 

They acknowledge the rise in plant-based ‘meats’ in the world. Which is seen as a positive and easy window into the vegan diet world. They were mostly talking about the rise in notoriety wrt vegan foods thanks to Beyond Meats and Impossible Foods. So yes, they’re mostly fast foods. Which while may be healthier than the meat counterpart is certainly much kinder to animals and the environment. 

 

The debate though is whether the face of rising vegan food culture is becoming too ‘unhealthy’ as it usually is accompanied by fries, a coke and served through a window.

 

Its an interesting thought. We often use a service called UCook, you select meals online and they deliver a box of x meals worth of fresh ingredients with recipes. Usually stunning meals, stuff we would never think of making when staring at an isle in the shops ourselves. 

 

Sometimes though, we make the meal and its just starchy, saucy and while mostly veg, it doesn’t actually feel ‘healthy’. I just want to grab a handful of spinach or leafy greens at the end of it. So I actually agree that ‘vegan food’ may be getting a little misidentified (?) misrepresented (?) the way bigger shops are offering them. I know its been said here many times that strictly speaking vegan food may not necessarily be the healthiest option in the world but it is the main reason I changed diets a while back. 

 

Maybe plant-based and veganism are too closely aligned, maybe its not overly about the health aspect and I’m the one putting the bias on it, maybe people don’t want anything other than ‘fast food’ type substitutes, I don’t know, just a ramble…

 

 

Never heard of the podcast. Will give it a bash. 

 

Just my quick 2c. Everything we're doing nowadays is modeled towards convenience, particularly food. That vegan food was going to get caught up in that was inevitable. I also understand why some companies like Impossible Foods and Beyond Meats have taken the path they have. If they can replace the suppliers of minced up cow flesh to McDonalds and the like, not only would it be lucrative, but have a better outcome from an animal rights and environmental aspect. 

 

That being said, veganism doesn't advocate a specific diet type or pattern. Just not one reliant on the exploitation of animals. My personal opinion is that the best diet is one centered around a diversity of whole plant foods. However, asking a junk food addicted person to immediately switch to clean fruits and veg is usually a big ask. So, if the 'less healthy' vegan foods can help the transition, then have at it. 

 

At the end of the day, there's a hell of a lot of people that don't give two shites about their health or what they put in their bodies. If they can be lured into better, slightly healthier options, all the better I guess. 

[Pure Savage]

Spanner in the works for a certain Australian Vegan.

 

 

https://www.wired.com/story/fungus-could-wipe-out-banana-forever/?bxid=5cec27c2fc942d3ada10239f&cndid=52130364&esrc=Wired_etl_load&source=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ&utm_brand=wired&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_mailing=WIR_Daily_081919&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nl&utm_term=list2_p1

[100Tours]

minced up cow flesh.. 

 

Odie, I thought there was some slowly forming consensus on using non-triggering, unemotional language here? You would definitely condemn (and police) any equivalent imagery from non-vegans on this thread. Stop it now and be nice when you argue.

 

The US for me has always over-engineered and over-industrialised their food, and the Beyond Burger is perhaps just more progress along these wrong lines?  This is the same country that requires a cold chain for their eggs because they wash them in hot water in production - the rest of the world just uses room temperature eggs, and doesn't have botulism to deal with. They also ban live cultures in all sorts of things. like french cheese. Point being they dream up some really weird stuff.

 

BB seems to be 2.5x the cost of actual beef in stores (for pea protein - how many peas had to die..). Interesting strategy for a beef replacement product, and unlikely to swing the masses. Although it might work for a few wealthy true believers. For the rest of us I'm mostly concerned that it will drive up the price of peas..  

 

Do you think that is all profit, or is the industrial meat-making process less efficient than cows? Or that might just be because they seem to be spending a bunch of money sponsoring a lot of academic studies into why their product is such a good idea in the first place.

[100Tours]

Spanner in the works for a certain Australian Vegan.

 

 

https://www.wired.com/story/fungus-could-wipe-out-banana-forever/?bxid=5cec27c2fc942d3ada10239f&cndid=52130364&esrc=Wired_etl_load&source=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ&utm_brand=wired&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_mailing=WIR_Daily_081919&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nl&utm_term=list2_p1

 

Actually I think we've already lost one species of banana. This is the already our second best option. The issue being monoculture - (almost) all commercial bananas are essentially the same banana clone. 1 fungus to rule them all? I think its a message to people not to mess with biodiversity so much 

 

The 'Gros Michel' banana was the world's premium export banana when it went extinct in 1965 as a victim of fungal 'Panama disease'. That was replaced with the Cavendish banana that we eat today, largely due to its disease resistance. the fungus is apparently catching up..

 

The good news is that there are thought to be a total of 5 adult wild banana trees left in Madagascar. Where we can go looking for the next replacement banana strain.

Edited August 21, 2019 by 100Tours

[Odinson]

Odie, I thought there was some slowly forming consensus on using non-triggering, unemotional language here? You would definitely condemn (and police) any equivalent imagery from non-vegans on this thread. Stop it now and be nice when you argue.

 

The US for me has always over-engineered and over-industrialised their food, and the Beyond Burger is perhaps just more progress along these wrong lines?  This is the same country that requires a cold chain for their eggs because they wash them in hot water in production - the rest of the world just uses room temperature eggs, and doesn't have botulism to deal with. They also ban live cultures in all sorts of things. like french cheese. Point being they dream up some really weird stuff.

 

BB seems to be 2.5x the cost of actual beef in stores (for pea protein - how many peas had to die..). Interesting strategy for a beef replacement product, and unlikely to swing the masses. Although it might work for a few wealthy true believers. For the rest of us I'm mostly concerned that it will drive up the price of peas..

 

Do you think that is all profit, or is the industrial meat-making process less efficient than cows? Or that might just be because they seem to be spending a bunch of money sponsoring a lot of academic studies into why their product is such a good idea in the first place.

 

'Tours, whether my use of 'cow flesh' is triggering is dependent on the reader. I prefer to not use euphemisms on this thread. It's not meant to be aggravating, it's just in line with the fact that I don't want to perpetuate such euphemisms such as 'beef', 'pork', etc. I choose to refer to the animal and not the commodity it's turned into. I hope that you can understand it from my point of view. 

 

Listen, I'm not saying that the BB is the saviour of the food system, but it's clear that it has advantages in compared with traditional animal based products. Would I recommend basing your diet around those types of products? No. There's healthier options, but I can't make people choose it. And you're right, it is expensive at the moment. It's still a niche import. There's a possibility they can drive the price down once they have a Euro production facility. 

 

I've never heard of claims that BB claiming to funds junk studies. Like the study I posted earlier, there was no nefarious funding - you can see for yourself. Whenever I post a study, feel free to read up on the funding/conflicts. 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Odinson

[100Tours]

I've never heard of BB claiming to fund junk studies. Like the study I posted earlier, there was no nefarious funding - you can see for yourself. Whenever I post a study, feel free to read up on the funding/conflicts. 

 

Apparently a group called the WRI.

 

https://twitter.com/_S70DD/status/1157880263613005826

Edited August 21, 2019 by 100Tours

[100Tours]

'Tours, whether my use of 'cow flesh' is triggering is dependent on the reader.

 

'Minced cows flesh'. Might just be the way you talk about other peoples food.

[Odinson]

Apparently a group called the WRI.

 

https://twitter.com/_S70DD/status/1157880263613005826

 

I think that Twitterer/Tweeter (?) relied on this article for his investigation: https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20071112005684/en/Generation-Investment-Management-Kleiner-Perkins-Caufield-Byers

 

My main issue with this twitter thread is the claims that a) all climate related animal consumption studies originate from the WRI (which is false) and 2) that the information studies are therefore inaccurate/misleading. 

 

I share your enthusiastic skepticism, but there's just too much of the same findings coming from unrelated sources too support a claim that it's just 'industry funded garbage'.  

Edited August 21, 2019 by Odinson