The Veganism Thread

[Odinson]

Sorry Odison,

But you knowledge of the Dairy Industry is Lacking a huge amount.

My late brother was a dairy farmer and NONE of what you have said above is applicable.

Would LOVE to know where you get your facts from ??

 

Mousea, I've not stated that this is the case in every single farm everywhere, including your brother's. It is the standard on medium to large scale farms. 

 

Please, feel free to correct me, but please, don't just tell me anecdotes about that one farm you know. 

[Odinson]

Thought you would have it at the ready.

 

Will go read it.

 

There are also technical standards under Meat and Animal Products Act. 

 

Keep in mind that what appears on the law books often means little in practice. They need to be enforced by the Dept. of Ag. 

[Gen]

There are also technical standards under Meat and Animal Products Act.

 

Keep in mind that what appears on the law books often means little in practice. They need to be enforced by the Dept. of Ag.

And then i will chat to my many farmer clients and hear what happens in practice.

[Grease_Monkey]

Unfortunately, that "most of our food" is not correct. What you see in that video is SOP. SA is very poorly regulated in regards to slaughterhouses and meat production and what happens in SA slaughterhouses is the same as you saw in that video.

 

Please take the time to watch the following:

 

Land of Hope and Glory - it shows UK animal farming practices, a country which has very high and well regulated animal welfare practices and regulations.

 

https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/

 

Then, the same for Dominion - a look into Australian animal farming.

 

https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko

 

Then, if you want to go to the OG, Earthlings:

 

https://vimeo.com/209647801

Will have a look at these when I have some time. (EDIT: Have actually watched Earthlings)

 

But...

 

You cannot tell me that hitting a cow over the head or shocking the repeatadly has any more mass scale advantage over putting a bullet/pin through it's head killing it instantly. I have been on hunting trips where buck were scared, chased, and then shot - the meat tastes shyte - like iron. If you kill something quickly it does not have that taste. Now I am sure if all my meat was killed like that I would taste it.

 

If the above holds true it means this is being done for no reason and that's just sick to say the least.

 

But anyway, let's just act under the completely untrue assumption that each and every animal that is killed for food is first tortured, sledge hammered, and tazered before finaly putting it down - my point still holds - this does not need to happen for us to eat meat.

 

Animals can be put down quickly and without pain. Will it be more costly in mass numbers? Maybe... if so I'd be willing to pay a premium for such meats. In fact I do - at Woolies - I know for a fact they are very attuned to humane treatment of the animals they put on their shelves (humane obviously subjective definition in this context).

 

Either way - eating meat does not have to equal the torture of animals. Surely we can agree the quick death of an animal (and better regulation of this practice) is already a step in the right direction? Maybe not as humane as not killing any animals, but surely more humane than torturing them first.

 

And lastly let's be honest - sensationalising something by saying "this cow was beaten and tortured before being killed hence all cows are being treated like this" (horns effect cognitive bias) is about as inaccurate as me saying "well on my last hunting trip I killed my buck quickly and without pain with a headshot while it was peacefully grazing hence all animals die like this" (halo effect cognitive bias).

Edited November 30, 2018 by Grease_Monkey

[Mousea]

Mousea, I've not stated that this is the case in every single farm everywhere, including your brother's. It is the standard on medium to large scale farms. 

 

Please, feel free to correct me, but please, don't just tell me anecdotes about that one farm you know. 

Ahh For heavens sakes.

All you need to do is come to the see the Dairy industry in KZN and you will see your statements are thumb suck BS.

Im all for respecting different beliefs Vegan, vegetarian etc.

But when I see trivial BS it makes my blood boil

[Gen]

Ahh For heavens sakes.

All you need to do is come to the see the Dairy industry in KZN and you will see your statements are thumb suck BS.

Im all for respecting different beliefs Vegan, vegetarian etc.

But when I see trivial BS it makes my blood boil

But then the story wouldn't suit their narrative.

 

I went to a dairy farm on a school trip..I def don't recall seeing calves tied to poles hardly being able stand.... I do recall seeing them drink from their mothers though.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Gen

[Gen]

There are also technical standards under Meat and Animal Products Act.

 

Keep in mind that what appears on the law books often means little in practice. They need to be enforced by the Dept. of Ag.

Jissie man.. there are very strict regulation on how an abattoir is run and how animals are killed.. stop it.. my one client I phoned confirmed this.. and it is enforced.. the abbatoir are very strictly regulated and run as per the regulations.

[Patchelicious]

The deleted part is exactly what you were asking. Is dairy and eggs conscious and where that threshold is for deciding to eat it or not. 

 

What is it you're trying to get at Patch? That 7 billion people all have their own "Pekkles"? 

No the deleted part was exactly the part that I was removing to try and clarify my question, which is the moral tipping point one. This is not about people actually doing it, its about the moral tipping point. I could also make a ludicrous assertion and say "what are you getting at Odi, that 7 Billion people stop eating meat" That is just as unattainable, but again not my question.

 

Let me try and clarify. Based on previous statements, eggs are not sentient, I lovingly care for and feed my chicken, which I saved from a slaughter house, she lives a great life doing what she wants and I will not slaughter her for meat. What is the moral objection to me eating a few of Pekkles eggs?

Edited November 30, 2018 by Patchelicious

[Gen]

No the deleted part was exactly the part that I was removing to try and clarify my question, which is the moral tipping point one. This is not about people actually doing it, its about the moral tipping point. I could also make a ludicrous assertion and say "what are you getting at Odi, that 7 Billion people stop eating meat" That is just as unattainable, but again not my question.

 

Let me try and clarify. Based on previous statements, eggs are not sentient, I lovingly care for and feed my chicken, which I saved from a slaughter house, she lives a great life doing what she wants and I will not slaughter her for meat. What is the moral objection to me eating a few of Pekkles eggs?

Would think nada.. if avos are okay to eat cause a bee just does what it does...surely then Pekkles is just doing what she does and her eggs are okay to eat.

 

 

Edit..

 

To add you also named her.. therefore you love her.. my neighbour has a pet rooster..weirdest thing..she rescued it somewhere and it is now part of her family. Stupid thing wakes us up at 3 am

Edited November 30, 2018 by Gen

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Jissie man.. there are very strict regulation on how an abattoir is run and how animals are killed.. stop it.. my one client I phoned confirmed this.. and it is enforced.. the abbatoir are very strictly regulated and run as per the regulations.

To add to this. There ARE outliers, who skirt the regulations to save cash and just run it haphazardly. These are also the ones that are targeted by "activists" in order to "show how slaughterhouses are run" when in fact it is an outlier and is not representative of the whole system. 

 

There ARE farms & slaughterhouses that mistreat their animals. But one out of 1,000's or even 10 out of 1,000's does not mean it applies to every one. 

 

Sorry, odie - but on this one you're guilty of the very same thing that you're accusing mousea of. 

[Eldron]

Let me try and clarify. Based on previous statements, eggs are not sentient, I lovingly care for and feed my chicken, which I saved from a slaughter house, she lives a great life doing what she wants and I will not slaughter her for meat. What is the moral objection to me eating a few of Pekkles eggs?

 

Reduction to the ridiculous is an awesome sight to behold in a debate. All you left out was that you saved Packles from the slaughterhouse whist seated on a unicorn in your 6,4Al titanium suit of armour.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Reduction to the ridiculous is an awesome sight to behold in a debate. All you left out was that you saved Packles from the slaughterhouse whist seated on a unicorn in your 6,4Al titanium suit of armour.

true, but if you buy the chicks from a breeder, and raise them yourself in the best conditions possible... are the eggs still taboo, seeing as they're not sentient? Chook isn't being harmed to get the eggs... 

 

Patch is just trying to see where it all ends. If it ends at all... 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Cptmayhem

[Patchelicious]

Reduction to the ridiculous is an awesome sight to behold in a debate. All you left out was that you saved Packles from the slaughterhouse whist seated on a unicorn in your 6,4Al titanium suit of armour.

What might seem ridiculous to you, might be meaningful to me.

 

I am trying to establish the parameters of "acceptable".

 

We have already established that its not life, but consciousness that matters... Plants vs sentient.

We have established that keeping animals is ok as you care for them.... pets

 

Based on that, I am trying too understand; if it is possible to keep animals in a humane way (hence me giving the chicken a pet name), while utilising their non-sentient by products (milk and eggs as examples), would that be acceptable to Odi?

Edited November 30, 2018 by Patchelicious

[GrahamS2]

I have and it's a fuckin' horror show. 

 

I've slaughtered a sheep with my bare hands. I've hunted. I've killed animals point blank with a rifle. That's why I know that it isn't natural and it isn't necessary. 

 

Like I've said, I've been eating animals for most of my life. I understand where people are coming from. 

Then you would know that the video you posted has nothing to do with industrial meat harvesting. It's a video of some idiots abusing an animal.

[Eldron]

What might seem ridiculous to you, might be meaningful to me.

 

I am trying to establish the parameters of "acceptable".

 

We have already established that its not life, but consciousness that matters... Plants vs sentient.

We have established that keeping animals is ok as you care for them.... pets

 

Based on that, I am trying too understand; if it is possible to keep animals in a humane way (hence me giving the chicken a pet name), while utilising their non-sentient by products (milk and eggs as examples), would that be acceptable to Odi?

 

I'm not sure Odi if qualified to answer your question - he has stated that his reason for being a vegan is both to save animals and the planet - the combination of logic AND emotion renders his response invalid in any rational debate.

 

That said - hey Odi - are there ANY conditions where you think it would be acceptable to eat milk/eggs?

 

Me - I had a bunch of free range chickens in SA and happily ate their eggs. They were tastier than store bought, it controlled over population on the property and saved me some money (which I definitely lost in food for said chickens). A lot of the time the chickens abandoned a nest of eggs - which I tested and then ate.

 

That said I ate chicken at that time and still eat chicken now so my answer is also invalid!

[Odinson]

Will have a look at these when I have some time.

 

But...

 

You cannot tell me that hitting a cow over the head or shocking the repeatadly has any more mass scale advantage over putting a bullet/pin through it's head killing it instantly. I have been on hunting trips where buck were scared, chased, and then shot - the meat tastes shyte - like iron. If you kill something quickly it does not have that taste. Now I am sure if all my meat was killed like that I would taste it.

 

If the above holds true it means this is being done for no reason and that's just sick to say the least.

 

But anyway, let's just act under the completely untrue assumption that each and every animal that is killed for food is first tortured, sledge hammered, and tazered before finaly putting it down - my point still holds - this does not need to happen for us to eat meat.

 

Animals can be put down quickly and without pain. Will it be more costly in mass numbers? Maybe... if so I'd be willing to pay a premium for such meats. In fact I do - at Woolies - I know for a fact they are very attuned to humane treatment of the animals they put on their shelves (humane obviously subjective definition in this context).

 

Either way - eating meat does not have to equal the torture of animals. Surely we can agree the quick death of an animal (and better regulation of this practice) is already a step in the right direction? Maybe not as humane as not killing any animals, but surely more humane than torturing them first.

 

And lastly let's be honest - sensationalising something by saying "this cow was beaten and tortured before being killed hence all cows are being treated like this" (horns effect cognitive bias) is about as inaccurate as me saying "well on my last hunting trip I killed my buck quickly and without pain with a headshot while it was peacefully grazing hence all animals die like this" (halo effect cognitive bias).

 

The thing is, the methods you see are the 'humane' methods. Cows often have to be bolted multiple times by a captive bolt before they actually are stunned.  

 

There is a reason why countries such as the UK and USA have criminalized filming inside slaughterhouses. What happens in there is not humane.