If you could have one mountain bike, would it be a trail or XC bike?

[Fred van Vlaanderen]

I switched from an XC (Scott spark) to trail (Pyga Hyrax) bike, and I’m finding the transition a little difficult. 
 

I’ve fallen twice in my last three outings (sliding out) and its difficult for me to pinpoint what the hell is going on, as I couldn’t intuitively tell where I messed up, which has never been a case in the past. 
 

I know it can be down to a number of factors (tyre choice, inflation, bike size, etc, etc), but could the change in the geometry of the bike be a little bit more difficult than I anticipated? 
 

Going down feels great, but cornering on flats and off-cambers doesn’t. Confidence on the bike is now terrible and I cut my ride short today to go straight home. 

[Trashy]

It could be the slacker head angle that's your undoing.

With the slacker head angle and shorter stem of a trail bike your weight is shifted further back than on a traditional xc setup, so you really need to weight the front wheel to gain traction.

[Fred van Vlaanderen]

3 minutes ago, Trashy said:

It could be the slacker head angle that's your undoing.

With the slacker head angle and shorter stem of a trail bike your weight is shifted further back than on a traditional xc setup, so you really need to weight the front wheel to gain traction.

Thanks. So perhaps just a bit more practise,  time on the bike and being more cautious. What you are saying makes sense. I do think my front wheel slid out first in both cases. 
 

Pressing down on the handlebar before a turn when leaning the bike in? Feels so strange that I now have to think about something that always just came natural.

[LazyTrailRider]

On 4/12/2019 at 9:32 AM, Jewbacca said:

When you start talking 140mm with 66' HA you're not talking about a 'trail' bike anymore.

Randomly found this “old” comment now. 
Just this morning, my brother and I were talking about how steep 66deg is and how much we’ve now gotten used to our 63.5deg machines.

How times have changed!

[porqui]

I ride a Giant Trance and a Scott Spark and I ride them totally differently so it is a matter of getting used to the bike. They both require a different approach. 

[Trashy]

32 minutes ago, Fred van Vlaanderen said:

Thanks. So perhaps just a bit more practise,  time on the bike and being more cautious. What you are saying makes sense. I do think my front wheel slid out first in both cases. 
 

Pressing down on the handlebar before a turn when leaning the bike in? Feels so strange that I now have to think about something that always just came natural.

I find being more cautious only makes matters worse! You have to commit to get the tire to grip.

Here's a pretty good cornering video that may give you some tips.

https://youtu.be/ZOqFywGllFw

 

[Fred van Vlaanderen]

14 minutes ago, Trashy said:

I find being more cautious only makes matters worse! You have to commit to get the tire to grip.

Here's a pretty good cornering video that may give you some tips.

https://youtu.be/ZOqFywGllFw

 

Thanks! Informative video. Have to admit that caution might be helpful in my case as over-confidence has gotten me in trouble in the past, but I understand what you mean in terms of committing! 
 

Appreciate the feedback. 

[Fred van Vlaanderen]

34 minutes ago, LazyTrailRider said:

Randomly found this “old” comment now. 
Just this morning, my brother and I were talking about how steep 66deg is and how much we’ve now gotten used to our 63.5deg machines.

How times have changed!

And to make matters worse - I have a 160mm fork, so I’m not at 66… which might be a part of my problem anyway. 

[robbybzgo]

Another factor could be the overall weight of the bike. I'm used to my lightweight carbon hardtail but took a bad downhill tumble as I couldn't straighten a 160mm aluminium Enduro bike after a sharp turn and a quick drop off. I'm quite lightweight so a heavy bike feels quite sluggish to me at slow speeds.

Check your tyres as older tyres seem to get harder and less grippy. 

Enduro tyres with bigger knobblies should give more grip. Schwalbe Magic Mary up front with Hans Dampf on rear seem like a good combination for me. Maxxis also have great Enduro tyre combinations.

 

[Fred van Vlaanderen]

1 minute ago, robbybzgo said:

Another factor could be the overall weight of the bike. I'm used to my lightweight carbon hardtail but took a bad downhill tumble as I couldn't straighten a 160mm aluminium Enduro bike after a sharp turn and a quick drop off. I'm quite lightweight so a heavy bike feels quite sluggish to me at slow speeds.

Check your tyres as older tyres seem to get harder and less grippy. 

Enduro tyres with bigger knobblies should give more grip. Schwalbe Magic Mary up front with Hans Dampf on rear seem like a good combination for me. Maxxis also have great Enduro tyre combinations.

 

So glad you mention the weight, because I've also struggled a bit even though the kg difference between the two bikes I've mentioned isn't as significant as yours.

[Hairy]

11 hours ago, Fred van Vlaanderen said:

I switched from an XC (Scott spark) to trail (Pyga Hyrax) bike, and I’m finding the transition a little difficult. 
 

I’ve fallen twice in my last three outings (sliding out) and its difficult for me to pinpoint what the hell is going on, as I couldn’t intuitively tell where I messed up, which has never been a case in the past. 
 

I know it can be down to a number of factors (tyre choice, inflation, bike size, etc, etc), but could the change in the geometry of the bike be a little bit more difficult than I anticipated? 
 

Going down feels great, but cornering on flats and off-cambers doesn’t. Confidence on the bike is now terrible and I cut my ride short today to go straight home. 

 

10 hours ago, Trashy said:

It could be the slacker head angle that's your undoing.

With the slacker head angle and shorter stem of a trail bike your weight is shifted further back than on a traditional xc setup, so you really need to weight the front wheel to gain traction.

There is definitely a change in body position required, and you would have to learn to ride the front wheel more than a older geo xc bike.

[Jewbacca]

11 hours ago, LazyTrailRider said:

Randomly found this “old” comment now. 
Just this morning, my brother and I were talking about how steep 66deg is and how much we’ve now gotten used to our 63.5deg machines.

How times have changed!

hahaha But then you ride a massive bike!

IMHO a 'trail' bike is still max 140mm front and rear with about that 66-67.5 HA geo.

A trail bike is supposed to be equally as adept at punching up hills as it is descending them.

I'm not talking winching up chatting, I'm talking riding up fast.

These days, if all was equal, I'd want a 130mm/120mm down country bike. With about a 66.5' HA

I'm not launching off the 20m gaps or 3m high drops on Iron Monkey etc or chasing STRAVA KOMS, so something that does everything well without being close to either end of the parabolic performance graph.

I mean, up until last year I still had faster times down some of the Tokai trails than you did on my 'XC' bike! hahahahaha (I recall we discussed this in the 'goals for 2022' thread)

It is crazy though how the industry finally pushed the boat on on big geo numbers and found it was in fact better than road bikes with some boingboing!

[Steady Spin]

Very happy with 66 degrees on my trail bike. 
Handles everything my old ass can throw at it. 

[El Duderino]

14 hours ago, Fred van Vlaanderen said:

I switched from an XC (Scott spark) to trail (Pyga Hyrax) bike, and I’m finding the transition a little difficult. 
 

I’ve fallen twice in my last three outings (sliding out) and its difficult for me to pinpoint what the hell is going on, as I couldn’t intuitively tell where I messed up, which has never been a case in the past. 
 

I know it can be down to a number of factors (tyre choice, inflation, bike size, etc, etc), but could the change in the geometry of the bike be a little bit more difficult than I anticipated? 
 

Going down feels great, but cornering on flats and off-cambers doesn’t. Confidence on the bike is now terrible and I cut my ride short today to go straight home. 

I'm no expert in these matters and I stand corrected, but the issue is probably geometry. If you were on an old Scott Spark, the head angle is probably about 69/70 degrees with a 70 to 100 mm stem. This puts your weight quite forward, meaning there is more weight on the front tyre, making cornering and handling more precise and less vague feeling. Weight on the front tyre increases grip which means more grip when cornering. A Pyga Hyrax probably has 66 or 65 degree head angle, and a short 30 or 40 mm stem. This moves your weight back quite significantly, reducing weight on the front tyre, giving that vague handling feeling and reduced grip when cornering. The Hyrax geometry is great for steep/technical descents, and requires an adjustment on tight, flat, non technical singletrack. You need to consciously start weighting that front tyre in flat corners, or you will keep washing out, even if you have that tractor tyre, the Assagay, up front.

[Fred van Vlaanderen]

14 minutes ago, El Duderino said:

I'm no expert in these matters and I stand corrected, but the issue is probably geometry. If you were on an old Scott Spark, the head angle is probably about 69/70 degrees with a 70 to 100 mm stem. This puts your weight quite forward, meaning there is more weight on the front tyre, making cornering and handling more precise and less vague feeling. Weight on the front tyre increases grip which means more grip when cornering. A Pyga Hyrax probably has 66 or 65 degree head angle, and a short 30 or 40 mm stem. This moves your weight back quite significantly, reducing weight on the front tyre, giving that vague handling feeling and reduced grip when cornering. The Hyrax geometry is great for steep/technical descents, and requires an adjustment on tight, flat, non technical singletrack. You need to consciously start weighting that front tyre in flat corners, or you will keep washing out, even if you have that tractor tyre, the Assagay, up front.

Thanks - makes a lot of sense!

[Blackheart]

I had to make the call about a year ago. I think it has more to do with where you are in the arc of your cycling life. I decided I'm not chasing numbers or positions anymore, but I still wanted to ride hard up and down. I wasn't doing any more Trans Karoo's or 24 Hrs, and I wasn't interested in losing those last 3 kilos of good living weight either. I also wanted a bike that would handle pretty much any trip I chose to take. I landed up with a Niner RIP9 RDO, which for me has a perfect blend of travel 150/150 and not too slack geometry 66.5 HA and 75 SA which helps to offset the longer travel when climbing. The frame is light enough to build up to a decent finished weight, mine is just on 12kg with an XX1 build. Yes, the front end wanders a little on the really steep stuff, but the trade off is the rear never, ever loses traction and it will clear techy, nasty climbs that my hardtail would never. Yes, I do feel the weight difference from my 9 kilo hardtail, but that really only matters on long smoother climbs. The trade off there is total composure on the descents, this thing just holds its line. I'm a bit slower on the long climbs, a bit faster on any descent and about the same everywhere else, but I'm having way more fun and I can do more laps because I'm not getting beaten up by my 'race' bike.

My 2c on the tyre difference - The wider tyres with bigger volume do tend to understeer at slower speeds or if they're not leant over like they should be. I also believe that most Trail riders are over tyred for most local conditions and there is no need at all to be dragging around 1.2 kilo tyres. Most of our rides and conditions just don't warrant it. For dry conditions I've settled on: Front - Schwalbe Hans Dampf Evo Supertrail Soft. Rear - Schwalbe Rock Razor Supertrail Medium. For me these are the sweet spot of weight, rolling speed, grip and puncture protection.