Shorter stem / higher rise bars or more practice?

[Gravaviel]

So I bought a 2nd hand Ghost AMR 7500 which came with a 110mm stem and 680mm bars (and a chainstay of around 438mm).

Obviously being an enduro bike, I nonetheless tried to make it moderately more trail capable to attempt learning proper manual / American bunny hop technique by fitting a 70mm stem and 720mm low rise bars and a dropper post. 
While this made a massive difference, I'm not sure if my technique is raw sewage or not, as I still find that, in the process of lifting the front wheel and finding my 'balance point', I struggle to get my weight over and behind the rear axle. Additionally, even when the seat is all the way down it still seems to be somewhat in the way and I have to angle my knees out to spread my thighs enough to pass over it (please note that I'm around 6ft tall and by no means have short arms or legs).

At this point I'm not sure if -

a) I was too conservative going with a 70mm stem, and in combination with a long'ish chainstay and low-riser bars, meaning I actually can't extend my arms far enough to get my weight back properly, or

b) I'm missing some key factors in my technique and just need to work harder.

Before I get responses along the lines of "practice more, you can manual a 29" with 100mm stem if you work hard enough", I'd like to get some expert opinions on my current bike geometry on whether I should be struggling so much or not. 

Is it worth experimenting and going shorter on the stem (45/50mm) with wider bars (this bundle is quite tempting: https://www.rapide.co.za/product/rapide-highrize-controlpack/), and if so, is 45mm appropriate or should I stick with 50mm?
Or is a 70mm stem with low-riser bars and a 438mm chainstay considered 'easy' to manual / wheelie / bunny hop with? 

To rephrase the question:
Hypothetically, if I paid R2500 for a private class and pitched up there with my bike would the instructor go "heck yea, gr8 setup mate, this is going to be a cake walk" or would he wince and tell me I might not get the full bang for my buck?

[Jewbacca]

Massively subjective.

 

There is no right or wrong answer. The Endurobro's will say 'Get a 40mm stem' and tell you that 720 is too narrow.

 

Realistically I would agree that you can go to 780 comfortably BUT it won't make a difference for when you manual.

 

I have a 60mm stem on Jeffsy and it is my sweet spot. 780 wide, 15mm  rise with 6' sweep. For me, it is my happy place. I tried a 40mm and it felt meh when I climbed, which is important was we spend 85% of the time climbing in SA.

 

I'm going to suggest you borrow some stem and bars lengths/widths from your friends and see if it makes a difference. 

 

It might be that your technique is rubbish after all.

[TyronLab]

I'm busy sukkeling along trying to learn some manuals on my XC bike that actually has similar geometry to yours.

 

If you look at bikes that are set up specifically for trials type riding they're completely different from "normal" bikes, so you're already working with a disadvantage there. You should, by all accounts, be able to manual that bike with the right technique, its far from a trials bike but also not impossible.

 

That feeling of not getting your weight back with the seat high, I found, is actually not using the correct motion to get your front wheel up. I found that yanking back diagonally, legs straight, I struggle to lift the front wheel to the balance point. What you need to do is have your bum travel in an L shape, so pump down vertically hard then only move horizontally back. That lifts the front wheel a lot highter up to the balance point and puts you in the right position to manual (legs almost straight, arms straight, bum low).

 

Alternatively I'm actually learning the balancing part of the manual by controlling a wheelie at the balance point then standing back and trying to keep it there using only weight.

[stefmeister]

Manuals; ain't easy. Point. Until one day it all just snaps together. 

 

It's not the gear, it's motor skills you have to learn. 

[Dieter ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

Watch more Youtube videos!

Notably Skills with Phil. That L shape they speak of is the main bit. 

I can't manual

[Bos]

Remember the new school short stem thing also comes with bikes with longer reach. If you slap a 50mm stem on a bike with old school geometry it will climb horribly. Although it will be easier to manual yes.  

 

Get some flat pedals, If you don't have, and go "play" on some grass where you can fall with a bit more comfort. 

 

Get confident with your back brake being your security, so with finger on back brake, purposefully pull up to far and pull back brake to keep from looping out, this will become second nature. 

 

Practice do make perfect. I use to be able to manuel like a pro but have not been doing it much  for a couple of years and I'm quite rusty all of a sudden. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqNoCu7k-pk

 

Don't forget the words of Wheelie king.. A bicycle is a lot like a horse, It can throw you off

[RobertWhitehead]

I'm the wrong guy to ask about manual but I watched a video about how to do it. I can't find it at the moment but it's from these okes: 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLLQodRLa4Q&ab_channel=GlobalMountainBikeNetwork

[Dieter ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

Well GMBN churn out many videos about the same topics...

Improve Your Manual Skills | MTB Coaching With Neil
 

How To Manual Like A Pro – MTB Skills

How To Manual – Can Roadies Manual On A Mountain Bike?
 

They are good but not all-encompassing, otherwise they would just make one and make it decent.    I would recommend watching Skills with Phil and Seth's Bike Hacks. These guys have been instrumental in my MTB skills development. really great Youtubers and teachers. 

Learning how to manual a MTB Problems & Mistakes | Skills With Phil

 

How to manual a MTB for beginners | Seths's Bike Hacks
 

Find some grass, get some flats and just practice practice practice. I would even practice looping out and getting comfortable jumping off the back of your bike. 

 

 

 

[AlanD]

Manuals; ain't easy. Point. Until one day it all just snaps together.

 

It's not the gear, it's motor skills you have to learn.

I'm Still waiting for...."The Day"...lol

[SwissVan]

So.... someone tell me.... what exactly is the benefit of learning to manual, as exhibited above it takes quite a long time for the average joe.

 

Yes, I can’t manual to save my life, yet somehow I’ve managed to survive reasonably well in the world of mtbking.

 

Not for lack of trying, spent lots of time on school sports fields with nice thick and soft green grass, until one fall onto my coccyx causing extreme pain suddenly made me realise it’s a waste of time, rather learn other bike skills that you will use on a regular basis and really need.

[ChrisF]

So.... someone tell me.... what exactly is the benefit of learning to manual, as exhibited above it takes quite a long time for the average joe.

 

Yes, I can’t manual to save my life, yet somehow I’ve managed to survive reasonably well in the world of mtbking.

 

Not for lack of trying, spent lots of time on school sports fields with nice thick and soft green grass, until one fall onto my coccyx causing extreme pain suddenly made me realise it’s a waste of time, rather learn other bike skills that you will use on a regular basis and really need.

 

I have had a few moments on trails where I needed a short manual to negotiate some or other obstacle ..... 

 

now if only I could master the art of doing this safely  .....     

[Jewbacca]

So.... someone tell me.... what exactly is the benefit of learning to manual, as exhibited above it takes quite a long time for the average joe.

 

Yes, I can’t manual to save my life, yet somehow I’ve managed to survive reasonably well in the world of mtbking.

 

Not for lack of trying, spent lots of time on school sports fields with nice thick and soft green grass, until one fall onto my coccyx causing extreme pain suddenly made me realise it’s a waste of time, rather learn other bike skills that you will use on a regular basis and really need.

Being able to manual allows you to carry WAY more speed through/over obstacles on the trail, pump over rises/mounds etc which means you can be smoother and way faster on the trails.

 

It does have a practical application, not just show off hand dragging down tar roads.

[SwissVan]

I have had a few moments on trails where I needed a short manual to negotiate some or other obstacle ..... 

 

now if only I could master the art of doing this safely  .....     

 

 

Being able to manual allows you to carry WAY more speed through/over obstacles on the trail, pump over rises/mounds etc which means you can be smoother and way faster on the trails.

 

It does have a practical application, not just show off hand dragging down tar roads.

 

 

Yes agreed knowing how to lift your front wheel to clear obstacles is important, but its not quite the same as manualling.... Manualing is basically wheeling while you are standing up....for fairly long distances (more than a couple of feet).

 

Learning to lift your wheel over common obstacles (log, rock, ditch, puddle, ect ) is much easier to learn compared to manualling like the videos teach.

[Pieter1]

Hey Grav.

I had some skills classes, also learning manuals and the bh. I’m an a rigid ht with a 30mm stem (I think) and 800m bars. Can’t say how that helps or does not but the skills classes are worth a lot. Youtube is nice and all but having someone show you and help you with 70000 other little tips and tricks is worth it. Not sure where you are but Peach’s classes are really worth it.

[ChrisF]

Yes agreed knowing how to lift your front wheel to clear obstacles is important, but its not quite the same as manualling.... Manualing is basically wheeling while you are standing up....for fairly long distances (more than a couple of feet).

 

Learning to lift your wheel over common obstacles (log, rock, ditch, puddle, ect ) is much easier to learn compared to manualling like the videos teach.

 

Jip.

 

Getting the front wheel over a log on the trail is one thing ....

 

 

Keeping the front wheel in the air while passing through a 2m long water crossing, while passing another rider ..... saw the water after the turn, not enough time to pass and get in front of the other rider, and did not want to loose all my momentum ....    did my best "L-shape" impersonation and managed to keep the front wheel in the air for most of the water crossing ....   the adrenaline boost got me up the rest of the hill ... 

 

If this happens again I would like to have more confidence in what I am doing .....

[Piston ZA]

So.... someone tell me.... what exactly is the benefit of learning to manual, as exhibited above it takes quite a long time for the average joe.

 

Yes, I can’t manual to save my life, yet somehow I’ve managed to survive reasonably well in the world of mtbking.

 

Not for lack of trying, spent lots of time on school sports fields with nice thick and soft green grass, until one fall onto my coccyx causing extreme pain suddenly made me realise it’s a waste of time, rather learn other bike skills that you will use on a regular basis and really need.

I think it also helps with learning to bunny hop properly, and to a certain degree learning how to do drop offs in certain situations.