Yyyy Posted July 9, 2021 Share 8 minutes ago, Jaco-fiets said: I must say it is rather ironic that doping has supposedly been brought under control but race speeds continue to rise and riders seem to old top form now for most of the season (some anyway). Genetics must be evolving faster than PED... Listening to THE MOVE podcast often I always listen how Lance and George speak about how current crop of cyclist would have dropped them on climbs even in their heydays. They explain this by advancements in Tech and training science I dont know what its like to be a pro back then or now but i would like to think that todays pros are even more focused on marginal gains when it comes to training and nutrition where possibly pros back then were more "relaxed" about it.... I dunno. My take is that not everyone is lifelong a clean/natty athlete and at some point took something to gain an advantage to speed up progression. However I would also like to believe that many are lifelong clean/natty athletes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vetplant Posted July 9, 2021 Share FYI: 219.9km from Nîmes to Carcassonne. Start scheduled at 12:05. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaco-fiets Posted July 9, 2021 Share 3 minutes ago, YaseenEnos said: Listening to THE MOVE podcast often I always listen how Lance and George speak about how current crop of cyclist would have dropped them on climbs even in their heydays. They explain this by advancements in Tech and training science I dont know what its like to be a pro back then or now but i would like to think that todays pros are even more focused on marginal gains when it comes to training and nutrition where possibly pros back then were more "relaxed" about it.... I dunno. My take is that not everyone is lifelong a clean/natty athlete and at some point took something to gain an advantage to speed up progression. However I would also like to believe that many are lifelong clean/natty athletes... Don't get me wrong! I don't imply doping (i actually could not care less, i just want to see a good race). Technological advances in all facets must play a big role. Vetplant and DieselnDust 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselnDust Posted July 9, 2021 Share 30 minutes ago, Jaco-fiets said: I must say it is rather ironic that doping has supposedly been brought under control but race speeds continue to rise and riders seem to old top form now for most of the season (some anyway). Genetics must be evolving faster than PED... I spokes with a Sports Scientist at a seminar last year and asked about that. The answer was quite complex since we're comparing performances from an era when doping was rife but sports science was still a witches brew, to the modern era where Sports science has largely negated the need for doping. Yes HGH, testosterone and EPO are still the premier PED's but its much easier to identify these today than 20 years ago. What we now know is what combinations of exercise load, cadence and power and durations create the most beenficial adaptations. This information is also far more widespread to the point where anyone with access to science journals and can read can earn enough to call themselves "coach" and be effective at coaching for performance gains. So yes we will see a general rise in performance. Many long held dogmas have been smashed by sports science, e.g. Junior gears, juniors do not benefit from endurance training, Intervals need to be maximal efforts and anything below that is junk miles, junk miles isn't a real thing as miles are miles. We're much more aware of where aero gains are of benefit and where its not. We understand the nuances in bike fit a lot more. We know how marginal gains add up (except R30k derailleur cages, that's just stupid and for ex golfers). The explosion of these young riders into the sport shouldn't be a surprise. Its just a product of the realisation that long held dogmas don't hold any truth and exposing talent to appropriate coaching early reaps benefits through systematic periodisation. We're seeing this in SA MTB as well. Just look at the juniors coming through the ranks. Heaps of potential in the Junior and U-23. Soon Alan won't be earning our UCI points alone Edited July 9, 2021 by DieselnDust Danger Dassie, Zatopek, Mountain Bru and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vetplant Posted July 9, 2021 Share 5 minutes ago, DieselnDust said: I spokes with a Sports Scientist at a seminar last year and asked about that. The answer was quite complex since we're comparing performances from an era when doping was rife but sports science was still a witches brew, to the modern era where Sports science has largely negated the need for doping. Yes HGH, testosterone and EPO are still the premier PED's but its much easier to identify these today than 20 years ago. What we now know is what combinations of exercise load, cadence and power and durations create the most beenficial adaptations. This information is also far more widespread to the point where anyone with access to science journals and can read can earn enough to call themselves "coach" and be effective at coaching for performance gains. So yes we will see a general rise in performance. Many long held dogmas have been smashed by sports science, e.g. Junior gears, juniors do not benefit from endurance training, Intervals need to be maximal efforts any below that is junk miles, junk miles isn't a real thing as miles are miles. We're much more aware of where aero gains are of benefit and where its not. we understand the nuances in bike fit a lot more. Marginal gains add up except R30k derailleur cages, that's just stupid for ex golfers. The explosion of these young riders into the sport shouldn't be a surprise. Its just a product of the realisation that long held dogmas don't hold any truth and exposing talent to appropriate coaching early reaps benefits through systematic periodisation. We're seing this in SA MTB as well. Just look at the juniors coming through the ranks. Heaps on potential in Junior and U-23. Soon Alan won't be earning our UCI points alone What fascinated me was an experiment on a youtube channel a while ago. Can't remember if it was an ex-pro or something like GCN/GTN. But they compared a TT bike from the 2000s to a Aero road bike from a recent release. The Road bike smashed the TT bike. I found it very surprising. But, 10+ years of R&D should start to yield results at some point. DieselnDust 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselnDust Posted July 9, 2021 Share Look at some event rules we have in SA. for DC you have to be 19 on December 31st of your year of participation. Tadej Pogacar won the TDF at 21, Egan Bernal similarly. I'm sure they didn't jump from CTCT to TDF winners in 1 year. In SA we still have these archaic rules that limits our kids development as world class sportspeople. So wehn our youngsters go to Europe to compete they get blown away by kids that have been riding huge distances (properly managed) since they were what 10. WvA rode the Mt Ventoux at age 10!!! And when we see performances like Wednesday the accusation from the peanut gallery at CN is "Doping". 20yrs ago I was in the EU and feeling kipper with my fitness and being a Sub3 rider I figured I was good to go. I had my arse handed to me by the Vet ladies. Peacock had his feathers plucked quickly. Doping had nothing to do with it. 25hrs per had since they were 10 had everything to do with it! Vetplant and DJuice 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plentipotential Posted July 9, 2021 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselnDust Posted July 9, 2021 Share Cavendish not in a speed suit today either. Laundry service in France is still crap? Long Wheel Base, Scary Rider and Vetplant 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselnDust Posted July 9, 2021 Share Gogl is DNS another one down for Qhubeka Next# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselnDust Posted July 9, 2021 Share 55 minutes ago, Jaco-fiets said: I must say it is rather ironic that doping has supposedly been brought under control but race speeds continue to rise and riders seem to hold top form now for most of the season (some anyway). Genetics must be evolving faster than PED... just another thought on this, Average speeds will rise as the stages are shorter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plentipotential Posted July 9, 2021 Share 2 minutes ago, DieselnDust said: Cavendish not in a speed suit today either. Laundry service in France is still crap? DQS taking another day off? DieselnDust 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vetplant Posted July 9, 2021 Share 10 minutes ago, Plentipotential said: DQS taking another day off? Cav seems to be actively trying to go into the break. Might be too difficult to keep the break in check over 200+ kms. So try and get Cav up the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsw Posted July 9, 2021 Share Just now, DieselnDust said: just another thought on this, Average speeds will rise as the stages are shorter Interesting that the 5 000 m world record for road track running has hardly improved at all over the last 20 years, while the records for the 10 000 m and the marathon improved by repectively 2 and 3 %. In road cycling the improvements appear to be up to 3x more. I know all about apples and pears and that we cannot compare road cycling to track and road running for a zillion reasons but such big differences between the improvements will make people suspicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselnDust Posted July 9, 2021 Share 7 minutes ago, dsw said: Interesting that the 5 000 m world record for road track running has hardly improved at all over the last 20 years, while the records for the 10 000 m and the marathon improved by repectively 2 and 3 %. In road cycling the improvements appear to be up to 3x more. I know all about apples and pears and that we cannot compare road cycling to track and road running for a zillion reasons but such big differences between the improvements will make people suspicious. Aero dynamic gains play a far bigger role the faster you travel. Marathon runners don't really run fast enough. remember the Sub 2hr marathon, that was achieved largely through pacing and creating a wind shadow for the runner to follow dsw 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vetplant Posted July 9, 2021 Share 3km-to-go rule for the GC classification is extended today to 4.5km. Trial to see if it makes the finish less dangerous for GC riders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_ Posted July 9, 2021 Share 7 minutes ago, dsw said: Interesting that the 5 000 m world record for road track running has hardly improved at all over the last 20 years, while the records for the 10 000 m and the marathon improved by repectively 2 and 3 %. In road cycling the improvements appear to be up to 3x more. I know all about apples and pears and that we cannot compare road cycling to track and road running for a zillion reasons but such big differences between the improvements will make people suspicious. Athletics is exactly where my mind went last night when dale posted the pic that began this train of thought. And its as you say, not even remotely comparable. I'm putting it down to a badly comprised set of comparatives, again without knowing anything behind the details, but one(or just me) doesn't know the weather, the length of the stages (mentioned), wind, who was challenging, who was breaking away, time gaps, etc etc. I think theres so much additional that happens on the day that affects cycling. Its not always flat-out speed attacks. dsw 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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