Ethics in Support of a Team

[Rowl]

Very good article and investigation by the Cyclingtips team:

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/11/the-dictator-the-oligarch-and-the-uci-president/

 

22 minutes ago, mecheng89 said:

Ditto for F1. Dodgy AF there as well. 

Ditto the LIV golf series.

[J Wakefield]

2 hours ago, justinafrika said:

A bit of a difference between working with a not-“clean” team/company and a team/company owned by those notorious for gross human rights criminality, wouldn’t one think?  I guess that’s not a consideration for you, each to their own.  I’ve met a couple of gang bosses (and Zuma) over the years if you’re ever desperate for work…. 😁 😂 🙈

I’ll see meself out.

 

Edit: Banter

Your view then on Israel cycling Nation would be the same category then? Bahrain? Ineos? Qhubeka when they were around? All these nations seems to have a black spot.

[DieselnDust]

10 minutes ago, Vetplant said:

Another example:

A gripe I can raise is the societal damage that alcohol does to our society at-large. This gripe is rooted in personal experiences of lives in our family that were ruined due to alcohol.

So, do I have merit to boycott any sports team that is sponsored by Castle/SAB? Can I force other people to see things my way and boycott them too?

Very difficult thing to pin down. I think if your own convictions push you to avoid a team/sport due to atrocities, then do it. But don't expect others to follow you on your path. IMHO.

a classic case that is relatable and had direct bearing on cycling; Specialized and the Cafe Roubaix fiasco.

there was blatant bullying of a small player by a large corporate under the guise of brand value protection. the number of people who supported the corporate was staggering. The same corporate was later awarded $1-00 in damages by a judge when it sued two former employees for leaving the company and starting their own bike brand. The Judge awarded in their favour by only $1-00 in damages because being technically right didn't amount to justice. Yet those bikes are as popular as ever. People personal bias determines the severity and the degree of brand value the market holds for said brands influences the shareprice to some degree.....but these do not guarantee change. the list goes on

Hilfiger and racism

Bp and oil spills

Shell and exploration rights in the arctic circle

VW and Dieselgate

Daimler Benz link to Nazi Germany 

ANC and incompetence

 

and there.s many many more that enjoy growth once the public outcry has died down and it always does.

IF we had to target countries is the USA not the most aggressive nation on the planet? Is the British Empire not one of the most evil regimes that has existed ? The views on this are as varied as there are are cultures as each has been affected differently and their point of view is informed by their experience or the impact that regime has had on their bottom line. If it pays you bills and lines your pockets one is less inclined to take a stand against it. IF it hurts me hell yeah I'm at the next protest hold my beer.

There are so many layers to be stripped away, how do we define how much onion we want to stripaway because at some level it will impact your pocket and then what?

[dave303e]

Here I was thinking this thread was going to be where teams are drawing the line in ethics of the sport.

Sticky bottles, blocking riders, support vehicles towing riders back to the bunch, helping supply drugs, tampering with samples etc....

[Yyyy]

Depending on your vantage point of the world, the environment and culture you grew up in or live in and the media you consume you can pretty much demonize any nation or corporate

@justinafrika while you have the right and freedom to demonize UAE, i too have the right to demonize IsraelPremierTech because of their associated Nation's human rights violations...... 

Edited July 6, 2022 by YaseenEnos

[justinafrika]

1 hour ago, YaseenEnos said:

Depending on your vantage point of the world, the environment and culture you grew up in or live in and the media you consume you can pretty much demonize any nation or corporate

@justinafrika while you have the right and freedom to demonize UAE, i too have the right to demonize IsraelPremierTech because of their associated Nation's human rights violations...... 

Of course, and I agree.  The word demonise has the notion of unfair criticism to it.  Nah, the Emirates and Israel (and a few others) have made their own bed with widespread and systematic human rights crimes.  Heck, it’s perfectly legal for Emirati men to physically assault their wives and daughters and to lock them away, as many court cases have also confirmed.  The intent of the discussion wasn't about politics, more about whether bikehub citizens would work with such an employer.

FWIW, my original bit on another thread:  

"I’ve admired the exploits and successes of TeamUAE and especially the exraordinary talent and effort of Pogačar.  It's sparked curiosity about whether anyone here would have reservations about doing work for/with a client or employer associated with widespread and serious human rights violations?

To qualify the question:  I stopped working with a major client, a multinational corporate, when they were bought out by Degussa.  That company is of course notorious for processing millions of jaws of those who died in German concentration camps in WW2, in order to extract gold from their teeth.  I started refusing to do business with any level of the SA state about 14 years ago when I realised it was becoming endemically corrupt.  I’m not virtue signalling, I’m outright stating that I won’t do business with the corrupt or criminal.

My ex SiL and her hubby are devout Christians but have no qualms about befriending the likes of the dodgy (traitorous, IMO) Zumas and Mbalulas and Gigabas, who'd occasionally turn up at family birthdays.  I’m outspoken and they were concerned about what I might say when those @R$3#0L3$ were present.  Where does one draw one’s proverbial line?  Would you have reservations about working for the likes of Qatar or UAE or Degussa?  Am interested so just asking…"

I also dropped Coca Cola SABCO as a client for the disgraceful way that they bankrupted the many distribution drivers  who had been set up as independent contractors.  Many family homes were lost.  The majority shareholder Gutsche’s daughter was a very good friend of mine, still refused to continue working with them.

Would you work for Israel Premier Tech?  Clearly not.  How about UAE Team Emirates?

Edited July 6, 2022 by justinafrika

[Yyyy]

26 minutes ago, justinafrika said:

Of course, and I agree.  The word demonise has the notion of unfair criticism to it.  Nah, the Emirates and Israel (and a few others) have made their own bed with widespread and systematic human rights crimes.  Heck, it’s perfectly legal for Emirati men to physically assault their wives and daughters and to lock them away, as many court cases have also confirmed.  The intent of the discussion was about politics, more about whether bikehub citizens would work with such an employer.

FWIW, my original bit on another thread:  

"I’ve admired the exploits and successes of TeamUAE and especially the exraordinary talent and effort of Pogačar.  It's sparked curiosity about whether anyone here would have reservations about doing work for/with a client or employer associated with widespread and serious human rights violations?

To qualify the question:  I stopped working with a major client, a multinational corporate, when they were bought out by Degussa.  That company is of course notorious for processing millions of jaws of those who died in German concentration camps in WW2, in order to extract gold from their teeth.  I started refusing to do business with any level of the SA state about 14 years ago when I realised it was becoming endemically corrupt.  I’m not virtue signalling, I’m outright stating that I won’t do business with the corrupt or criminal.

My ex SiL and her hubby are devout Christians but have no qualms about befriending the likes of the dodgy (traitorous, IMO) Zumas and Mbalulas and Gigabas, who'd occasionally turn up at family birthdays.  I’m outspoken and they were concerned about what I might say when those @R$3#0L3$ were present.  Where does one draw one’s proverbial line?  Would you have reservations about working for the likes of Qatar or UAE or Degussa?  Am interested so just asking…"

I also dropped Coca Cola SABCO as a client for the disgraceful way that they bankrupted the many distribution drivers  who had been set up as independent contractors.  Many family homes were lost.  The majority shareholder Gutsche’s daughter was a very good friend of mine, still refused to continue working with them.

Would you work for Israel Premier Tech?  Clearly not.  How about UAE Team Emirates?

I respect if you have a line drawn about who you would work for and who you wont. I too have a line that I will not cross (and yes IPT would be a hard no). I have refused to even consider working for specific sectors in the economy or certain companies that benefit very specific nations (not just Israel). 

But it would be naïve to think our money is "clean". Some how in some way that same nation or company you refuse to business with is still some way involved in your life. China is another nation that i put on my "No" list but yet most things we need just to function in todays world is sourced from China.

As much as I agree that UAE as a nation has its own Human rights violations, there are nations that are and have done way worse.  UAE Team Emirate as a cycling team has also made steps to become more progressive...more progressive than perhaps another famous Belgium team (*cough Quickstep)

I guess its where you draw the line.

Wherever you draw it, you just got to make peace with it and accept it may not be perfect and not everyone will agree with it.

Edited July 6, 2022 by YaseenEnos

[DieselnDust]

13 minutes ago, YaseenEnos said:

I respect if you have a line drawn about who you would work for and who you wont. I too have a line that I will not cross (and yes IPT would be a hard no). I have refused to even consider working for specific sectors in the economy or certain companies that benefit very specific nations (not just Israel). 

But it would be naïve to think our money is "clean". Some how in some way that same nation or company you refuse to business with is still some way involved in your life. China is another nation that i put on my "No" list but yet most things we need just to function in todays world is sourced from China.

As much as I agree that UAE as a nation has its own Human rights violations, there are nations that are and have done way worse.  UAE Team Emirate as a cycling team has also made steps to become more progressive...more progressive than perhaps another famous Belgium team (*cough Quickstep)

I guess its where you draw the line.

Wherever you draw it, you just got to make peace with it and accept it may not be perfect and not everyone will agree with it.

very well said

[Danger Dassie]

2 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

very well said

Indeed, by both persons.