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Ethics in Support of a Team


Vetplant
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7 minutes ago, mikkelz said:

How about sharing the point that was made, so this thread has some context. 🤔

 

Otherwise... 🍿

@justinafrika, would you mind making the opening statement? 

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1 minute ago, Vetplant said:

@justinafrika, would you mind making the opening statement? 

In the meantime, here is the link to the original point:

 

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I’ll bite:

you ended your post ‘just asking’ so here is ‘just replying’…

I felt your post WAS provocative/misplaced/likely to derail the topic in the other thread, so happy it has been moved to here…

1. conflating a country’s human right record with that specific thread on the TdF, and the UAE Team in particular, is a bit rich, my opinion…

You are conflating government, and cycling…

2. Russia? human rights violations, USA; not much better; fact is, the rapidly ‘Westernizing’ UAE is likely to gradually move towards more-accepted Intl ‘norms’, and even sponsoring an Intl cycling team exposes them to different cultures/races/religions…which can only be a good thing, surely…

3. I spent 3 years in USA, and 3 years in Saudi, and much time in UAE ; in truth, they ALL have serious ‘problems’. Exposure to the globe/different viewpoints/different nationalities, can only be a good thing.the Kashogi murder was tragic/unforgivable, but that is Saudi, and not the UAE…

Being highly principled is an admirable trait; potentially derailing the other cycling thread, not so much, again, my5c.

Cheers

Chris

 

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17 hours ago, Zebra said:

I’ll bite:

you ended your post ‘just asking’ so here is ‘just replying’…

I felt your post WAS provocative/misplaced/likely to derail the topic in the other thread, so happy it has been moved to here…

1. conflating a country’s human right record with that specific thread on the TdF, and the UAE Team in particular, is a bit rich, my opinion…

You are conflating government, and cycling…

2. Russia? human rights violations, USA; not much better; fact is, the rapidly ‘Westernizing’ UAE is likely to gradually move towards more-accepted Intl ‘norms’, and even sponsoring an Intl cycling team exposes them to different cultures/races/religions…which can only be a good thing, surely…

3. I spent 3 years in USA, and 3 years in Saudi, and much time in UAE ; in truth, they ALL have serious ‘problems’. Exposure to the globe/different viewpoints/different nationalities, can only be a good thing.the Kashogi murder was tragic/unforgivable, but that is Saudi, and not the UAE…

Being highly principled is an admirable trait; potentially derailing the other cycling thread, not so much, again, my5c.

Cheers

Chris

 

Yeah thanks Chris.  Just got back from an overnight ride so this is my first look.  Am a little surprised to read that there’s a consideration that that thread might be derailed ‘cos it's related to a TdF team, I deferred and stepped back at any rate.  

I guess the question was also elicited in part ‘cos I chose to turn down a World Cup-related job offer in Qatar last year despite a significant personal and professional and financial slump these last several years.  Some kinda “personal code” prevented me from working with several of my former graduates in Qatar, given the widespread abuses and shockingly high number of labour-related deaths (6 500) in preparation of the FIFA world cup.  I really am interested in the opinions in the bikehub community.

Regarding your point 1. about TeamUAE the idea that international sport and politics are separate entities is no more than a myth, since the origins of international sport it has ALWAYS been political.  Even the Olympics have always been political.  Are we to ignore the massive and widespread abuses of the kafala labour system (especially since 90% of labourers are foreigners with no rights), the forced disappearances of very large numbers of anyone who even even vaguely comments on reforms whether in private or on social media, the legal and formalised assault of wives and daughters?  Heck, even the supreme leader al-Maktoum is notorious for the vicious assaults and detention without trial of his wife and daughters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates  In fact, Amnesty International’s description of “serious human rights violations, widespread arbitrary detentions, cruel and inhumane treatment of detainees, systemic suppression of freedom of expression…” sounds just like this “white boy from the suburbs’” observations of working in New Brighton and KwaZakhele at the height of the anti-apartheid struggle in the mid 1980’s.  Those words describe the apartheid police state.

 

At any rate, the original question came during a lull in action in yesterday’s stage and was directly related to my admiration for Pogačar and his team’s achievements.  As for "You are conflating government, and cycling…”, team ownership does in fact go back to Emirati government ownership through two state banks and Emirates Airlines and I was wondering if that would factor into those in the bikehub community’s team/work considerations.

Appreciate your opinion and you taking the time to respond, Chris.  :thumbup: 👐

Edit:  It’s turned into a glorious day here so I’ll check back here after a lunchtime ride through the valley trails.

Edited by justinafrika
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I'm 99% sure that if one boycott a team because of some kind of political issue or whatever, the TDF or any sport for that matter won't take place. No-one is 100% clean. If you find a team that is clean, then you go to the equipment, is that is clean, next up is the staff. If they are clean then next up are the other sponsors. Eventually someone will pop up dirty and then it's on to the next one.

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50 minutes ago, Titleist said:

I'm 99% sure that if one boycott a team because of some kind of political issue or whatever, the TDF or any sport for that matter won't take place. No-one is 100% clean. If you find a team that is clean, then you go to the equipment, is that is clean, next up is the staff. If they are clean then next up are the other sponsors. Eventually someone will pop up dirty and then it's on to the next one.

A bit of a difference between working with a not-“clean” team/company and a team/company owned by those notorious for gross human rights criminality, wouldn’t one think?  I guess that’s not a consideration for you, each to their own.  I’ve met a couple of gang bosses (and Zuma) over the years if you’re ever desperate for work…. 😁 😂 🙈

I’ll see meself out.

 

Edit: Banter

Edited by justinafrika
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47 minutes ago, Titleist said:

I'm 99% sure that if one boycott a team because of some kind of political issue or whatever, the TDF or any sport for that matter won't take place. No-one is 100% clean. If you find a team that is clean, then you go to the equipment, is that is clean, next up is the staff. If they are clean then next up are the other sponsors. Eventually someone will pop up dirty and then it's on to the next one.

This is my point. Is the lack of ethics confined to human rights violations and then how far back are we going here? 
our beloved team Qhubheka may be in trouble too with the merc three pointed star on the kit….

this topic requires careful and considered framing 

<off to smoke a zol before the stage starts>

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1 hour ago, Titleist said:

I'm 99% sure that if one boycott a team because of some kind of political issue or whatever, the TDF or any sport for that matter won't take place. No-one is 100% clean. If you find a team that is clean, then you go to the equipment, is that is clean, next up is the staff. If they are clean then next up are the other sponsors. Eventually someone will pop up dirty and then it's on to the next one.

I get what @justinafrika is saying. And it's difficult to be a completely fair judge and juror when it comes to our personal convictions on who to support and and do business with. 

Personally, I don' like the argument about no one is 100% clean so we might as well support everyone. I think it leads to less accountability and that's never a good thing. How far back in history do you go, what falls within your conviction? I don't know..

I don't give money to beggars. My experience with them is that 90% of beggars have some form of addiction and/or are too lazy to work. So by giving money I most likely support industries in our country, I most definitely don't want to support. And giving food creates a dependency on handouts. Not caring and ignoring the issue is however also not a good solution. So I rather donate to NGOs who I think are addressing these types of problems closer to their roots (foster homes, early childhood development, education, sport programmes, etc), instead of the symptoms.

I know I'm not doing it 100% efficiently, and my reasoning isn't 100% rational but that shouldn't stop us from trying.

 

Edited by M L
typo
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Very interesting podcast by The BBC on football and the impact of sportwashing (the below link is on the Pocketcast app:

BBC Billionaire Ball Game

BBC direct link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct41wd

 

Nestle and all their shenanigans are also a good example of where do you draw the line. Agree with ML's post above. We hold our politicians, family members and the like accountable, why not who we support etc. Vlasov riders under a white flag/no flag. But it comes down to all those dollars/pounds/randelas flowing around.

Edited by Roul
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2 hours ago, Titleist said:

I'm 99% sure that if one boycott a team because of some kind of political issue or whatever, the TDF or any sport for that matter won't take place. No-one is 100% clean. If you find a team that is clean, then you go to the equipment, is that is clean, next up is the staff. If they are clean then next up are the other sponsors. Eventually someone will pop up dirty and then it's on to the next one.

Ditto for F1. Dodgy AF there as well. 

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52 minutes ago, Roul said:

Very interesting podcast by The BBC on football and the impact of sportwashing (the below link is on the Pocketcast app:

BBC Billionaire Ball Game

BBC direct link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct41wd

 

Nestle and all their shenanigans are also a good example of where do you draw the line. Agree with ML's post above. We hold our politicians, family members and the like accountable, why not who we support etc. Vlasov riders under a white flag/no flag. But it comes down to all those dollars/pounds/randelas flowing around.

Great find

Thought: Will a certain level of involvement in something like sport (owning a football club and supporting a few teams at the TdF), give an unreasonable form of protection to a country/political regime/individual with poor human rights records. 

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1 minute ago, mecheng89 said:

Ditto for F1. Dodgy AF there as well. 

Another example:

A gripe I can raise is the societal damage that alcohol does to our society at-large. This gripe is rooted in personal experiences of lives in our family that were ruined due to alcohol.

So, do I have merit to boycott any sports team that is sponsored by Castle/SAB? Can I force other people to see things my way and boycott them too?

Very difficult thing to pin down. I think if your own convictions push you to avoid a team/sport due to atrocities, then do it. But don't expect others to follow you on your path. IMHO.

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