Future of SA road cycling

[Frosty]

A rider levy and day licence is not the same thing.

I’m not sure about 947 and CTCT being liable for the rider levies, as this was a storm in a teacup when Mark Cavendish entered the CTCT. There was a meeting with the big events and CSA about paying a fixed fee.

All (smaller) events pay a R5.00/rider levy to CyclingSA, irrespective of the riders being licensed or not.

A day licence, R50.00, is usually charged extra on top of the entry fee, so the R675 is likely to change to R725 after the day license is issued.

edit: entry fee is R665, and that excludes a day license (R50).

Edited September 6, 2023 by Frosty

[pedal menace]

17 minutes ago, Frosty said:

A rider levy and day licence is not the same thing.

I’m not sure about 947 and CTCT being liable for the rider levies, as this was a storm in a teacup when Mark Cavendish entered the CTCT. There was a meeting with the big events and CSA about paying a fixed fee.

All (smaller) events pay a R5.00/rider levy to CyclingSA, irrespective of the riders being licensed or not.

A day licence, R50.00, is usually charged extra on top of the entry fee, so the R675 is likely to change to R725 after the day license is issued.

edit: entry fee is R665, and that excludes a day license (R50).

I just entered and when I was asked if I had a CSA license I said "NONE" - went onto pay and received my entry ticket. And the price did not change when I said... NONE. Not complaining as I think this whole license model is just a scam. 

[Danger Dassie]

This is about as clear as mud. Previously when we enquired we were told it was the day licence. 

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, Danger Dassie said:

This is about as clear as mud. Previously when we enquired we were told it was the day licence. 

R5.00 per rider is the levy.

Then day licence fee is split between CSA (R28.00), Provincial Affiliate (R12) and Event Organiser (R10.00). Here is the invoice from our 2022 event.

So that's R16k they take from the event, for very little added value to the event. The bigger the event, the more they get. 

[Dazshell]

On 9/6/2023 at 12:31 PM, pedal menace said:

Quick question on old thread. Trying to enter 94.7 Ride Joburg. 

Do I need to have annual CSA license? Or can a day license be purchased? I used to have an annual CSA license but that has expired. I checked now on CSA website and it is R325 annually for normal license and you MUST belong to a club (which I do not - why should I be forced?) Do I really need an CSA license for the few events I may do a year (mostly ofroad MTB events). I also noticed that on Ride Joburg FAQ it states:
The entry fee of R675.00 includes VAT and a CSA rider levy.
What is rider levy?

CSA Rider levy is not the CSA license, it is a fee they charge the race organisers for every entry.  Usually around R7.50 per rider.  So you pay to be a member to ride a race and then the race organiser pays to have you too!  Unless you ride at least 8 races a year, it is cheaper to just take out a day license.

[Danger Dassie]

1 hour ago, Dazshell said:

CSA Rider levy is not the CSA license, it is a fee they charge the race organisers for every entry.  Usually around R7.50 per rider.  So you pay to be a member to ride a race and then the race organiser pays to have you too!  Unless you ride at least 8 races a year, it is cheaper to just take out a day license.

You mean a membership, not a day licence?

[Frosty]

2 hours ago, Dazshell said:

CSA Rider levy is not the CSA license, it is a fee they charge the race organisers for every entry.  Usually around R7.50 per rider.  So you pay to be a member to ride a race and then the race organiser pays to have you too!  Unless you ride at least 8 races a year, it is cheaper to just take out a day license.

57 minutes ago, Danger Dassie said:

You mean a membership, not a day licence?

A day licence is R50

Membership is R250

Provincial Fee is R25-R75 depending which region you live in.

So less than 5-7 events per year it will work out cheaper than the basic membership. If you do more than that (including multi-day events, as these count per day), then a membership is cheaper.

Note that I said cheaper, not more/less beneficial.

https://www.cyclingsa.com/membership/cyclingsa-membership/

[Spinnekop]

On 9/9/2023 at 1:34 PM, Frosty said:

A day licence is R50

Membership is R250

Provincial Fee is R25-R75 depending which region you live in.

So less than 5-7 events per year it will work out cheaper than the basic membership. If you do more than that (including multi-day events, as these count per day), then a membership is cheaper.

Note that I said cheaper, not more/less beneficial.

https://www.cyclingsa.com/membership/cyclingsa-membership/

Still clear as mud to me.........sorry, I am noticeably slower than the avg person.
And in saying that, about 99% of race entry websites then dont get this right......

Speaking "yearly".........on CSA web page:
Membership is R250
Domestic racing License is R500 
Gauteng provincial fee R75
Total R825

Lets say I only do "membership"  R250+R75
I now enter 94.7
If I choose "Day license" R50, does that mean I get to race Vets?  (Normally it doesnt as race organisers see this R50 day "whatever" as the "membership"
So even if I choose "day license" while already having membership for the year, the race org will not seed me Vets but will seed me open because they see it as part of of the "membership" or the "levy" or whatever they think they have to call it.

Stupid and confusing.

Again.  As said before......
One fee.  One definition.  One seeding according to ability.  
But also then someone at CSA has to start working and applying their minds and caring about cycling in SA.
Or not.
At this stage its just another tax put on active people for participating in events.  So they just avoid it and ride with friends.

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, Spinnekop said:

Lets say I only do "membership"  R250+R75
I now enter 94.7
If I choose "Day license" R50, does that mean I get to race Vets?

My previous response was wrong… the R50 is called “day membership”, but it used to be called “day licence”.

Green block - you can choose the per event membership = R50 per event; or you can choose the annual option for any number of events for the year = R250.

Red block - racing licence.
This requires that you pay the Green block R250 + R75 (Provincial fee).

[Spinnekop]

6 minutes ago, Frosty said:

My previous response was wrong… the R50 is called “day membership”, but it used to be called “day licence”.

Green block - you can choose the per event membership = R50 per event; or you can choose the annual option for any number of events for the year = R250.

Red block - racing licence.
This requires that you pay the Green block R250 + R75 (Provincial fee).

That is how I also have it.
But organisers confuse the two terms.  There shouldn't be two terms.  It's stupid IMO.

I did not have "membership" last year.  Entered a local small race, added the "R50 day license" and they seeded me Vets 40+
Wrong.

 

[Frosty]

20 minutes ago, Spinnekop said:

I did not have "membership" last year.  Entered a local small race, added the "R50 day license" and they seeded me Vets 40+
Wrong.

For a few years I was seeded in Vets for 947, without having membership, as well as a few smaller races. 

I know that 947 was outside the UCI window (season ends at the end of October), but that has also changed in the last few years.

[Danger Dassie]

Sigh …. Also on the app, when you click on “membership benefits” it simply just takes you to where the various membership levels are, not to the actual benefits that are supposedly underwritten. 

Totally understand the challenges with limited resources and how thankless a task it is with a lot of the national and provincial federations. But people are paid for this and these are the basics that push people away.

 

[Spinnekop]

Again.........Lotto funds excluded........... how many Vets in TOTAL?  200 per age group? (It is WAY less).
Thus giving you around 800 "full race license monies"  = R 400,000

How many "Members"?
5000?
10 000?
Let's say 5000.  Membership fees income R1.25m
 

So if you raise the basic fee to R330 and this includes Seeding according to ability (no more Vets) but you get seeded A-Z (or Cat 2-26 like in Europe and USA with Cat1 reserved for professionals) then you get full racing membership that allows you to race everywhere in SA any time.  I can then race my peers at any race and compete in provincials and nationals.

Raising the fee to R350 will make CSA a "profit"
On the income side, you safe on CSA officials for at LEAST 3 Vets bunches that are no more.  No more registration and number collection and crap over two days wasting peoples time.

But that is just a though.......
My 2c

[Jewbacca]

13 minutes ago, Spinnekop said:

Again.........Lotto funds excluded........... how many Vets in TOTAL?  200 per age group? (It is WAY less).
Thus giving you around 800 "full race license monies"  = R 400,000

How many "Members"?
5000?
10 000?
Let's say 5000.  Membership fees income R1.25m
 

So if you raise the basic fee to R330 and this includes Seeding according to ability (no more Vets) but you get seeded A-Z (or Cat 2-26 like in Europe and USA with Cat1 reserved for professionals) then you get full racing membership that allows you to race everywhere in SA any time.  I can then race my peers at any race and compete in provincials and nationals.

Raising the fee to R350 will make CSA a "profit"
On the income side, you safe on CSA officials for at LEAST 3 Vets bunches that are no more.  No more registration and number collection and crap over two days wasting peoples time.

But that is just a though.......
My 2c

If they did this and somehow managed to 'get it right', it would be absolutely terrible for so many people........ WHAT would they have to complain about?!!!! 

Taking away the ability to wail at CSA about the license/seeding would be like taking away one of their legs! 

[ChrisF]

You lot have nothing to complain about.

 

Imagine riding events on an e-bike .... the shock and horror.

 

.... We welcome you, but start at the back ....

 

.... Thank you for entering, you are in the FIRST batch .... (and restricted to only one distance option)

 

.... Winelands gives us our very own batch, just after the race groups, and ahead of the fun riders.....

 

 

 

O-sorry, back to CSA fees ....

- Sometimes the entry portal shows CSA fees, or rather, sometimes it is included in your basket and you cant enter without paying CSA.

- Often the entry portal mentions CSA, and it is a lottery if we have to pay this at registration ....

- and then THIS.  NO CSA fees for the ebikes at this event (unless it was included into the initial price) ...

 

 

Ironically this last event is where I saw the most activity from the CSA official.

 

 

@Frosty thank you for your input.  Rands and cents aside, it may just be less schlep for me to pay CSA annually .....  Is the CSA subscription from January to December ?  Or 12 months from date of paying ?

 

 

PS - I think Winelands still has THEE best solution for this.  Start in front and the racing snakes catch you at the start of a single track .... not fun for anybody.  Starting at the back is okay, noting the ebiker will now catch a few slower riders and look for a passing spot, but at least the racers can have a free fight up front.  Starting in the middle like Winelands does really works VERY well. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by ChrisF

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, ChrisF said:

thank you for your input.  Rands and cents aside, it may just be less schlep for me to pay CSA annually .....  Is the CSA subscription from January to December ?  Or 12 months from date of paying ?

Here’s where it gets unnecessarily complicated.

The annual membership is valid for 12 months from the date of payment, i.e. July to June.

A racing licence is valid from Januworry to December, inline with the UCI regulations.