Carrying while cycling

[Pall Catt]

6 hours ago, Mook said:

Remember that, in SA, a criminal's human rights weigh 50x more than the victim's. Yes, a dead thieve cannot testify against you, but you will be screwed for the rest of your life having popped him in the head for taking your bike.

Honest question here, is this really something to be that concerned about still these days? I just feel like there are people committing all sorts of crimes and the prosecution just drags on or falls apart and criminal convictions seem highly unlikely even in some of the most blatant of cases. Not to open up a discussion about Oscar Pistorius, but to use his case as an example, he pretty much got away with it until there was public outrage that seemingly changed the outcome. So it just makes me think, if he could almost get away shooting his girlfriend in his own home behind a closed bathroom door, surely my chances would be better than his in a legit case where I am just an ordinary person who has killed someone in a situation which is very obviously more hostile than the situation he was in (ie. an attempted mugging/attack)? Are there even prosecutors who have time for these kinds of cases anymore?

[Bike Dewing]

56 minutes ago, Mikejk said:

To carry or not = personal decision.   If one does decide to carry one of these North American Arms in .22 Magnum may be a good option. Very small and being single action its unlikely that the user will accidentally pull the trigger whilst fumbling for it.

.22 is a devastating round actually.. what a lovely little gun😍.. 

[Bike Dewing]

8 minutes ago, Pall Catt said:

Honest question here, is this really something to be that concerned about still these days? I just feel like there are people committing all sorts of crimes and the prosecution just drags on or falls apart and criminal convictions seem highly unlikely even in some of the most blatant of cases. Not to open up a discussion about Oscar Pistorius, but to use his case as an example, he pretty much got away with it until there was public outrage that seemingly changed the outcome. So it just makes me think, if he could almost get away shooting his girlfriend in his own home behind a closed bathroom door, surely my chances would be better than his in a legit case where I am just an ordinary person who has killed someone in a situation which is very obviously more hostile than the situation he was in (ie. an attempted mugging/attack)? Are there even prosecutors who have time for these kinds of cases anymore?

I apparently missed @Mook post.. 

 

it’s not quite accurate that you will absolutely sit in jail because you killed someone over your bike.. as a statement it’s not correct.. in certain situations it is correct.. you cannot protect property with lethal force.. so when someone says give me your bike and has no weapon with him, you cannot shoot him.. the second he shows you a weapon it’s game on.. and if the po po show up on scene you will give a statement and they can claim(based on evidence found at the scene) it was a legal shooting and you get to go home.. your gun might go to ballistics etc, I’ve said, it comes with admin, but you get to go home.. the investigation may continue and you might get called in for further questioning or give an additional statement🤷🏼‍♂️.. 

 

as harsh as it sounds, the rule of thumb is, one side of the story is better than two sides.. everytime.

 

Oscar Poestorious is a different case all together.. he’s a blatant liar and a murderer.. end of.. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[ChrisF]

33 minutes ago, Pall Catt said:

Honest question here, is this really something to be that concerned about still these days? I just feel like there are people committing all sorts of crimes and the prosecution just drags on or falls apart and criminal convictions seem highly unlikely even in some of the most blatant of cases. Not to open up a discussion about Oscar Pistorius, but to use his case as an example, he pretty much got away with it until there was public outrage that seemingly changed the outcome. So it just makes me think, if he could almost get away shooting his girlfriend in his own home behind a closed bathroom door, surely my chances would be better than his in a legit case where I am just an ordinary person who has killed someone in a situation which is very obviously more hostile than the situation he was in (ie. an attempted mugging/attack)? Are there even prosecutors who have time for these kinds of cases anymore?

 

A friend's business was robbed at gun point.

 

Two weeks later again .... this time he pulled out the pistol from the drawer instead of the cash they expected, already one up and cocked ....  killed one and seriously wounded the second.

 

Sure, this was clear self defense ... still a LOT of schlep to go through before the case was dropped.

 

And as mentioned in this thread, he had to live with having taken a life .... forget the keyboard bravado for a moment, it rattled him for a while !!!  Knowing you were "right" and living with it aint the same thing.

 

 

I drove up Helshoogte earlier today, nice slow drive looking at the cyclists .... and the "pedestrians" ...  NO WAY to know which one of the pedestrians are going to knock you off your bike at the very last second !!!  One cyclist on the way down actually looked back, then moved over 2 lanes when passing a pedestrian .... read the reports of the recent jackings there, LAST SECOND.  By the time you fall off your bike it is too late for a fire arm.  Heaven forbid it falls next to you ....

 

Sure, there are uses for a fire arm, but not in the case of a bike jacking.

[V18]

Just an observation. I see some of you mention the term de-escalate when talking about the event.

My morbid 2c from multiple real life witnesses (trauma patients) sources. Once the guy with the knife/panga/sharpened rebar has you in his 2m body blockade. There is no American TV show "money or your life" exchange/negotiation going on. You are 90% gonna get stabbed. Sometimes as a way to make you shock submit. Sometimes to make a big guy crumble in pain (myself). Sometimes to slow you down from getting to the police station. 

Also. Not stabbing you is not because he felt some remorse or he is worried about prosecution. Prosecution after such events is a sub 1% occurrence and likely not something he has ever seen or thought of IRL. He didn't stab you because you were not worth running after and he has what he wants. Bike and phone. 

I gathered all this from real witness stories from people we see in the trauma unit. Debriefing with me around the events leading to their presentation. Some of these people genuinely gave up everyting up front. Still got 10-20 solid head, neck and chest stab wounds. 

And another thing. Seeing a knife as a less serious threat than a firearm is a massive misconception. As efficient if not more at close quarters in experienced hands. (Ie none of us keyboard warriors.)

My top tips:

Head on a swivel.

Wide birth around people.

Try not to ride alone. (I found myself a 1.9m 105kg English-man with a touch of the tism to do most of my mtb training with in exchange for me handling the trail side mechanicals. He has the queens blood and delicate skin you see.)

Don't stop by pedestrian crossings (assailants hide in the crowd in plain sight.)

If you can run. Run. In fact. Practice running whilst spraying pepper spray behind you. Throw that bike at him and run. 

Pepper spray (a fresh kannetjie) works nicely. It turned my one incident into a non event. It's a real visual deterrent too. So showing it works very well. 

If you are caught. Cover your head neck and chest and kick wildly like an ostrich with epilepsy. Punching only opens up your neck and chest. Knives love necks and chests. And that's where the juicy red bits are. You need those in the immediate future. 

Lastly. If you insist on carrying a gun. Be elite level proficient. Practice practice practice. Sommer met jou fiets by die baan. You are now turning your solo incident into a potential innocent bystander event.

Last word...practice your running. No shame in coming back home alive. 

 

[Bike Dewing]

1 hour ago, ChrisF said:

 

A friend's business was robbed at gun point.

 

Two weeks later again .... this time he pulled out the pistol from the drawer instead of the cash they expected, already one up and cocked ....  killed one and seriously wounded the second.

 

Sure, this was clear self defense ... still a LOT of schlep to go through before the case was dropped.

 

And as mentioned in this thread, he had to live with having taken a life .... forget the keyboard bravado for a moment, it rattled him for a while !!!  Knowing you were "right" and living with it aint the same thing.

 

 

I drove up Helshoogte earlier today, nice slow drive looking at the cyclists .... and the "pedestrians" ...  NO WAY to know which one of the pedestrians are going to knock you off your bike at the very last second !!!  One cyclist on the way down actually looked back, then moved over 2 lanes when passing a pedestrian .... read the reports of the recent jackings there, LAST SECOND.  By the time you fall off your bike it is too late for a fire arm.  Heaven forbid it falls next to you ....

 

Sure, there are uses for a fire arm, but not in the case of a bike jacking.

Taking a life is no joke, even in self defense.. my lawyer friend says all the time though “**** that, I’ll take the court case”😳.. 

being knocked off your bike or your assailant is on top of you from out of nowhere.. your firearm is going to be useless.. unless you can fight him off, retention shoot really well and create space, and maintain that space at full presentation or compressed ready.. 

[Bike Dewing]

28 minutes ago, V18 said:

Just an observation. I see some of you mention the term de-escalate when talking about the event.

My morbid 2c from multiple real life witnesses (trauma patients) sources. Once the guy with the knife/panga/sharpened rebar has you in his 2m body blockade. There is no American TV show "money or your life" exchange/negotiation going on. You are 90% gonna get stabbed. Sometimes as a way to make you shock submit. Sometimes to make a big guy crumble in pain (myself). Sometimes to slow you down from getting to the police station. 

Also. Not stabbing you is not because he felt some remorse or he is worried about prosecution. Prosecution after such events is a sub 1% occurrence and likely not something he has ever seen or thought of IRL. He didn't stab you because you were not worth running after and he has what he wants. Bike and phone. 

I gathered all this from real witness stories from people we see in the trauma unit. Debriefing with me around the events leading to their presentation. Some of these people genuinely gave up everyting up front. Still got 10-20 solid head, neck and chest stab wounds. 

And another thing. Seeing a knife as a less serious threat than a firearm is a massive misconception. As efficient if not more at close quarters in experienced hands. (Ie none of us keyboard warriors.)

My top tips:

Head on a swivel.

Wide birth around people.

Try not to ride alone. (I found myself a 1.9m 105kg English-man with a touch of the tism to do most of my mtb training with in exchange for me handling the trail side mechanicals. He has the queens blood and delicate skin you see.)

Don't stop by pedestrian crossings (assailants hide in the crowd in plain sight.)

If you can run. Run. In fact. Practice running whilst spraying pepper spray behind you. Throw that bike at him and run. 

Pepper spray (a fresh kannetjie) works nicely. It turned my one incident into a non event. It's a real visual deterrent too. So showing it works very well. 

If you are caught. Cover your head neck and chest and kick wildly like an ostrich with epilepsy. Punching only opens up your neck and chest. Knives love necks and chests. And that's where the juicy red bits are. You need those in the immediate future. 

Lastly. If you insist on carrying a gun. Be elite level proficient. Practice practice practice. Sommer met jou fiets by die baan. You are now turning your solo incident into a potential innocent bystander event.

Last word...practice your running. No shame in coming back home alive. 

 

Running and or getting to cover are always number one when things kick off.. whether you are elite level trained or not.. and yes, you are responsible for every single round that leaves your gun and where that round ends up.. know your target and what’s beyond it..👍🏻 

[V18]

Out of interest. Where would be the best place to conceal carry a firearm whilst out on your ride. I'm not sure there are many good options available. Best to find one (which I doubt will be aiwb) and practice from that position. I have a friend who carries. He's very proficient. But I can never tell where he keeps the lil baby Browning. Or if it would be available fast enough when needed. 

[NickGM]

1 hour ago, ChrisF said:

And as mentioned in this thread, he had to live with having taken a life .... forget the keyboard bravado for a moment, it rattled him for a while !!!  Knowing you were "right" and living with it aint the same thing.

100%. So many people that saw action in, for example, the bush war in Zimbabwe, have serious demons to deal with now. I know myself well enough to know that I'd rather just hand over my bike. And I don't buy the keyboard bravado either.   

[Bike Dewing]

12 minutes ago, NickGM said:

100%. So many people that saw action in, for example, the bush war in Zimbabwe, have serious demons to deal with now. I know myself well enough to know that I'd rather just hand over my bike. And I don't buy the keyboard bravado either.   

Absolutely, veterans mental health in almost all countries that have them is a real problem.. 

That’s a good point, knowing yourself is very important.. if you can tell it’s not for you before hand that’s probably a good thing.. 👍🏻 trust that feeling

[Bike Dewing]

30 minutes ago, V18 said:

Out of interest. Where would be the best place to conceal carry a firearm whilst out on your ride. I'm not sure there are many good options available. Best to find one (which I doubt will be aiwb) and practice from that position. I have a friend who carries. He's very proficient. But I can never tell where he keeps the lil baby Browning. Or if it would be available fast enough when needed. 

Generally the solution is off body, and I will never advocate for off body carry unless it’s in my companies chest rig, 🤣🤣🤣🤣.. I wouldn’t sell it if I didn’t believe in it..🤷🏼‍♂️

but otherwise off body carry is dumb as fuuu.. 

[Bike Dewing]

3 hours ago, Robbie Stewart said:

 

Hahahaha.. funny cos it’s true😰

[Wannabe]

My 2 cents on this whole discussion. I always maintained that an assailant won't just take my bike, he'll have to fight for it. Let me tell you, the day my bike was taken from me, it was less than 30 seconds before they drove off with my bike on the back of their little clapped out Corsa bakkie. I was in the process of setting the guy who grabbed my bike up for a vicious counterattack, when his buddy came at me from the side, which was open and totally unprotected. At this stage I had my bike between myself and the initial attacker and had no other option than to let go of my bike and create space between myself and the two attackers. They chucked my bike on to the back of the bakkie, jumped on and sped off in a cloud of dust. As I said, over in less than 30 seconds. I did not even have time to reach for my pepper spray, never mind a concealed gun if I had one. 

Being an ex SAP member (1980's SA), I know the demons that follow you all too well. You don't draw a firearm if you are not prepared to use it, and then carry the consequences, judicial and mental.

 

[Mamil]

I'm old enough to have been conscripted but I never went. I matriculated in '86 just when one of the asshats that has ruled us over the decades did his "Rubicon" speech and went off to study. I kept passing and deferring until the system collapsed.

Then in one of life's ironies I applied for a job with the military at SAMS in Braamfontein and got turned down -- I asked the Majoor why and he said "You're too soft". 

I think it's cos I said I wouldn't carry a gun.

[The Ouzo]

15 hours ago, Bichael Dewing said:

That’s a good point, knowing yourself is very important.

exactly the reason I dont own a firearm. I know what happens when I see red mist, and having access to a FA would probably lead me to doing something very very stupid.

But it also scares the crap out of me sometimes, knowing that I have no way of defending my family should we have a home invasion.

[Robbie Stewart]

1 hour ago, Wannabe said:

You don't draw a firearm if you are not prepared to use it

This is probably the most important comment on this entire thread.

If you draw, your very next action must be to squeeze the trigger whilst making sure you ONLY get rounds on target. By this time there is no more time to worry about emotion or consequence. You draw to shoot. And before you do that you had better make sure you have an adequate backstop for rounds that pass through or miss the target, because you are liable for every round that departs the chamber of your sidearm.