LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[jcza]

Interesting.

 

I ran comrades on coke mixed half half with water...

 

edit: ...back in the day when I was young and stupid and didn't know any better...

 

I race with half/half quite often

[the nerd]

Welcome and much good luck. What you are feeling is "carb flu" and IF you are feeling this it means that you have restricted your carb intake low enough for your body to start showing withdrawal symptoms. Now just watch out for your body's "junkie mentality" to kick in as it tries to convince you that one more pie or one more sweet won't be bad for you.

 

My advice is to not waste your money on a ketone meter. I have one and I use it once in a blue moon just as a control - the strips for this meter are helluva expensive too. Rather order some ketostix from someone like @flexia (PM her, she's on The Hub) and use that to get you going. A purple indication on that stick shows you that you are in the right zone and that's really all you need to know !

 

Keep us posted on progress and shout if there is anything that you need help with, there is a lot of collective experience and sometimes even wisdom on this thread

 

Thanks for the welcome, Ive definitly had some craving but ignored it ha ha. I will look into the ketostix to help keep track.

 

Whats the best thing to snack on inplace of sweets etc?

[davetapson]

Thanks for the welcome, Ive definitly had some craving but ignored it ha ha. I will look into the ketostix to help keep track.

 

Whats the best thing to snack on inplace of sweets etc?

 

Welcome...

 

Biltong, dry wors, nuts (not peanuts or cashew nuts ), cheese. I keep woolies american hotdog sausages or something similar in the fridge for emergencies (yeah, yeah, I know). Salami, olives, cold meats, avo's...

[Grondpad]

For those in PTA.

 

Yesterday I bought great Macadamias for R95/kg at “Housewives Market” on the corner of Lynnwood and Louis Botha (next to the butchery). They are great quality

 

I also bought some Almonds but they were still expensive @ R174/kg

[DaleE]

Been some very interesting comments in the last few days ... thanks to all for the input.

 

One of the common phrases we hear and use is: "when you are fat adapted". So, how do you know you are fat adapted? It's not just being in ketosis .. that anyone can achieve within days. I have always thought of it as roughly 3-4 months of consistent lchf, but that's just based on personal experience and 'feel'.

Can it be measured?

[htone]

Been some very interesting comments in the last few days ... thanks to all for the input.

 

One of the common phrases we hear and use is: "when you are fat adapted". So, how do you know you are fat adapted? It's not just being in ketosis .. that anyone can achieve within days. I have always thought of it as roughly 3-4 months of consistent lchf, but that's just based on personal experience and 'feel'.

Can it be measured?

 

Good question, Dale and it sounds as if this is one of the issues that SSI is currently grappling with !

The literature on this is quite sparse and although I also thought of it as a roughly 4 - 6 month adaptation, it would now appear that this is only one part of the adaptation - and to keep it simple, let's just say this is muscle adaptation, where you form new mitochondria that are more efficient at burning fat for fuel. However what happens in the rest of the body and in the liver in particular is somewhat of a mystery, it would appear. The various energy cycles that are driven by specific hormones seem to take a lot longer to adapt, hence the term "reprogramming your genes" being bandied around. I think "complete adaptation" to the point where your body will be able to keep up with Glycogen / Ketone demands under any type of exercise intensity will take several years, and I guess the ultimate test would be to have said adapted athlete perform at above VO2Max levels for an extended period (in my mind certainly well over 2 hours, but probably closer to e.g. 5 hours).

 

I am not an endurance athlete and I have never participated in any of the really long distance or ultra events, but just for general interest, are there any such athletes on this forum who could shed light on what their typical performance levels (HR, exertion, effort, etc) is during such a long-distance event ? I am now referring to running as opposed to cycling - do you run for e.g. 5 hours at below VO2Max, or would that be well above VO2Max ? I am asking this because I suspect that many of the elite ultra athletes are probably adapted to the point where they can manufacture enough energy from fat only to last several hours - but this would be from years training at those levels.

[jcza]

I'm sure this is of interest

 

http://www.quivertre...eal-revolution/

 

By Prof Noakes & others

 

Part myth-busting scientific thriller, part mouth-watering cookbook, the goal of the real meal revolution is to change your life by teaching you how to take charge of your weight and your health through the way you eat.

•more energy • less (or no) cravings • no hunger • weight loss • much better health in every aspect • better blood glucose and insulin readings •enhanced athletic performance • increased mental focus • better sleeping habits

Edited November 14, 2013 by jcza

[Topwine]

It's a pipe dream to think that you must "just allow more time to adapt" to be able to create the same energy from fat burning as from glucose at higher intensities.

 

It's simple math. I've posted about this before here, https://community.bikehub.co.za/topic/125843-lchf-low-carb-high-fat-diet-ver-2/page__view__findpost__p__2072662 , but it seems that people don't read the actual science behind these things. It's far better (it seems) to ignore the evidence and keep believing in lala land.

 

The rate limit is not the fuel, ie fat or glucose, but the oxygen needs with it to be able to convert to ATP. For high intensity efforts, you need maximum energy at maximum rates. Your lungs (& cardio system) can only supply so much oxygen, depending person to person. Fat burning needs more oxygen per ATP molecule created than glucose burning does. Fat burning is therefore less efficient ito oxygen consumption.

 

Further, apart from max or high intensity effort purposes, those with heart problems should also read this, since Fat metabolism is inefficient and likely even detrimental compared to glucose metabolism for heart health. http://www.heartandmetabolism.com/download/53/8.pdf

[Topwine]

3.1. Phosphorous/oxygen ratios and the efficiency of ATP generation

 

Phosphorous/oxygen (P/O) ratios of oxidative phosphorylation define the number of molecules of ATP produced per atom of oxygen reduced by the mitochondrial electron transport chain [70], and differ depending on the type of energy substrate utilized for the generation of mitochondrial NADH and FADH₂. Comparing palmitate and glucose as energy substrates, the complete oxidation of one palmitate molecule generates 105 molecules of ATP, while the complete oxidation of one molecule of glucose generates 31 molecules of ATP. Although fatty acid b-oxidation clearly generates the larger amount ATP, it comes at the expense of a greater oxygen requirement than carbohydrate oxidation. The P/O ratio of palmitate is less than that of glucose, making palmitate a less efficient substrate for ATP synthesis. Therefore, at any given level of cardiac work, an increased dependence on fatty acids relative to carbohydrates as an oxidative fuel (which occurs during reperfusion following ischemia and in the early stages of heart failure) decreases cardiac efficiency. Cardiac efficiency only differs by a theoretical value of 10–13% when calculated on the basis of P/O ratios using exclusively palmitate or glucose as an oxidative fuel. However, reported differences are much larger, ranging from 25–40%, suggesting there are additional mechanisms by which the balance between fatty acid and carbohydrate oxidation influences cardiac efficiency.

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167488911000231

[Topwine]

Cardiac insulin-resistance and decreased mitochondrial energy production precede the development of systolic heart failure after pressure-overload hypertrophy.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23861485

 

CONCLUSIONS:

 

The development of cardiac insulin-resistance and decreased mitochondrial oxidative metabolism are early metabolic changes in the development of cardiac hypertrophy, which create an energy deficit that may contribute to the progression from hypertrophy to heart failure.

 

Stimulation of glucose oxidation protects against acute myocardial infarction and reperfusion injury

 

http://cardiovascres.oxfordjournals.org/content/94/2/359.long

 

1. Introduction

 

Ischaemic heart disease is a major health problem worldwide, affecting North Americans more adversely than any other pathological condition. Although numerous mechanisms contribute to ischaemic injury,¹ there is clear evidence that cardiac dysfunction during and following myocardial ischaemia is mediated, at least in part, by the type of energy substrate utilized by the heart.^2–5 For example, following ischaemia and during reperfusion, an excessive reliance on fatty acids contributes to cardiac dysfunction.^2,6 Elevated fatty acid oxidation rates result in the subsequent inhibition of glucose oxidation rates in the heart.^2,7 Furthermore, glycolytic rates remain high and are thus uncoupled from glucose oxidation, thereby increasing proton production and decreasing cardiac efficiency.^2,8,9 We and others have demonstrated that overcoming fatty acid oxidation-induced inhibition of glucose oxidation in the heart (either by directly stimulating glucose oxidation,^2,8,10 or by inhibiting fatty acid oxidation),^11–13 improves the recovery of post-ischaemic cardiac function.

 

Conclusion These findings demonstrate that stimulating glucose oxidation via targeting either PDH or MCD decreases the infarct size, validating the concept that optimizing myocardial metabolism is a novel therapy for ischaemic heart disease.

 

 

Targeting fatty acid and carbohydrate oxidation — A novel therapeutic intervention in the ischemic and failing heart

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167488911000231

 

 

Research highlights

 

 

► Fatty acid and carbohydrate oxidation provide ATP required for cardiac contraction. ► Balance between fatty acid and carbohydrate oxidation affects cardiac efficiency/function. ► Fatty acid oxidation predominates in the post-ischemic and failing heart. ► Interventions can increase carbohydrate oxidation and decrease fatty acid oxidation. ► Increasing carbohydrate oxidation benefits the post-ischemic and failing heart.

 

1. Introduction

 

The high energy requirements of the myocardium are evidenced by the high rates of adenosine triphosphate (ATP) synthesis and hydrolysis. Myocardial ATP stores are relatively low compared to the amount of ATP required to sustain cardiac contraction, basal metabolism, and ionic homeostasis. As a result, there is a nearly complete turnover of the myocardial ATP pool every 10 s [1], with the heart cycling approximately 6 kg of ATP on a daily basis [2]. To meet these high energy demands, the normal heart possesses a high degree of metabolic flexibility, which is demonstrated by its ability to utilize various energy substrates including fatty acids, glucose, lactate, and ketone bodies to generate ATP. The contribution of each of these energy substrates to ATP generation is tightly regulated, and there is a significant degree of plasticity and interdependence between energy substrates utilized.

 

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167488911000231

[Boesman Benson]

Hi All,

 

I haven't posted here before, but I've been lurking on this thread, reading, learning and experimenting with LCHF lifestyle since Dec 2012 when I came across Peter Atia's site. I do quite a bit of cycling training and racing and get the odd podium result (when the good guys are not there) in the Vets category.

 

I tried LCHF proper ie +/-50g CHO per day for a while. I managed a decent training load, but all at sub threshold and everything was OK. Then I moved into a next training block, intensity moved up to threshold and intervals went from 20min to 30min to 45min and longer. By the middle of the third week (just before a rest week), my wheels came off spectactularly. I became so tired and fatigued that I couldn't get up in the mornings. Although I was extremely tired, I couldn't sleep well at night. After some reading I came to the conclusion that my body was running ultra low on glycogen.

 

I probably caught this early enough and for me the fix was eating more Carbs and taking it real easy for at least 3 weeks. I now eat somewhere between 100g and 200g carbs per day and whaoo what a difference it has made.

From my experience: You can eat less carbs when your training load or rather training intensity is low (sub threshold). But when you're doing Threshold and above training - don't be shy of eating Carbs. You can still play around with Carb timing to keep you 'burning' fat for a lot of the time.

 

NB: Nutritional Ketosis is not ideal for everyone!!! Consuming less carbs than the - lets call it standard South African diet - is!!

 

The 'dream' about becoming so "fat adapted" that you can sustain above threshold intensity for extended periods by metabolising fat as energy source will probably stay a 'dream' for a while. Maybe not in our lifetime.

 

I've noticed a few members that do not appreciate the contributions of Mr Topwine. I do not know him at all, but I want to congratulate and thank him for keeping up with his valuable contributions. There are people on the list that do appreciate them and I have learned a lot by reading some things "from the other side". Thank you Sir!

 

If that was too much for a first post - sorry! I'll be quiet for another year.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Boesman Benson

[DomJBo]

 

Through endurance training adaptations and specialized regimens (e.g. fasted low-intensity endurance training), the body can condition type I muscle fibers to improve both fuel utilization efficiency and workload capacity to increase the percentage of fatty acids utilized as fuel, sparing carbohydrate use from all sources.

 

Comes back to training at low HR again. We need to bear in mind that the amount of carb taken during a race is roughly 40gr per hour although I find that I'm able to stretch it to 90 mins.

 

Is there a concept named after this?

 

I want to go and do some more research on it so that I can fully understand it but not too sure where to start, maybe fat adapted trying in endurance athletes?

 

I know I must go read Maffetone's book and principally it's lower HR training, I'm just hungry for more.

[davetapson]

Is there a concept named after this?

 

I want to go and do some more research on it so that I can fully understand it but not too sure where to start, maybe fat adapted trying in endurance athletes?

 

I know I must go read Maffetone's book and principally it's lower HR training, I'm just hungry for more.

 

Have a look at this:

https://www.bikehub.co.za/features/_/featured/achieving-maximal-results-with-polarised-training-r1082

[jcza]

This is my understanding of the fat burning process but I've had no success with it at high intensity.

 

If for some reason you don't have enough glycogen stored (because you've been fasting or doing endurance exercise) then your body will want to store glycogen in the muscles. Your body will still want to fill up the tank, even if you don't eat any carbs. To get glucose in the blood in the absence of dietary carbs, the body uses a process called "gluconeogenesis" which is a process of converting amino acids (free proteins) to glucose. The body will use protein you eat preferentially in this process, or it will break down lean mass and tissues in your body.

 

Ketosis is a state in which your body manufactures ketones from fatty acids to use as a replacement fuel it substitutes for glucose in the brain. But ketones are not, I think, involved in storing glycogen in the muscles.

 

Another hitch here is that free fatty acids are available to be used as fuel in the muscles for low intensity exercise at any time, so your body doesn't necessarily need a large store of glycogen to operate. "Fat burning" can take place instead.

 

In other words, I don't think the body breaks down fats and turns them directly into glucose. The body doesn't need to do this, since breaking down fats yields a fuel (fatty acids) that can substitute for glycogen in the muscles directly.

 

Training to become a better fat burner is not a new concept - http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/01/becoming-a-better-fat-burner.html

[davetapson]

TW makes an interesting point - that energy production at maximal intensity is limited by max O2 intake - the arguments being that as energy production from fat is less efficient than from glucose, then the limitation is actually a persons ability to absorb oxygen.

 

It is interesting in that it may explain why folk riding at intensity battle to do so on fat.

 

However, intuitively I find it difficult to believe that O2 intake is a limiting factor - I've never really panted so hard that I couldn't pant harder.

 

The make or break for this theory will be a study on whether is is possible to max out your O2 absorption rate.

 

(VO2max is a different thing - VO2max is not just how much 02 you can absorb, but also how much 02 you can use).

 

But it is an interesting thought.

 

Edit:

The more I think about this, the less I think it can be true. One thing that happens with fat adaption is that you pant less while exercising.

 

My understanding:

The trigger to breathe more deeply is driven by two factors:

1. O2 requirement of working muscles (plus normal non-exercise related rqts)

2. As a response to raised lactic acid levels.

 

When you become more fat adapted, you burn less carb and thus create less lactic acid. Thus heavier breathing is only triggered by raised O2 rqts.

 

It is very noticeable when you start becoming fat adapted that you are not panting when doing the same higher intensity work as prior to becoming fat adapted. Even when I'm red-lining now, I breathe heavily, but I wouldn't describe it as panting. I used to sound like a steam train at max puff.

 

So - is hard for be to believe that O2 absorption is limiting factor in energy production at intensity.

Edited November 15, 2013 by davetapson

[DJTerblanche]

Hi Everybody

 

I have recently started with a ketogenic diet and have done alot of reading up on the subject.

I just want to point out that gluconeogenesis also includes the process where your body breaks down fat to produce free fatty acids and a glycerol. Glycerol either gets stored as glycogen by the liver or gets broken down into glucose and release into the bloodstream (to be taken up by muscles or to help power your brain).

So your body will be running on ketones and glucose in a state of ketosis, even if you have no carb intake. There is an adaption period for your body to get used to the metabolic state of ketosis, I like to think of this like the period where your fat enjin starts to get fit. It has been proven that you get a performance dip in the first few weeks, probably because of low glucose levels in your muscles (because your brain is still using all the glucose produced via lipolysis) and not adeqaute fat breakdown by your body (yet) to produce all the fuel you need during the adaption phase.

 

And here is an interesting study on the impact on the aerobic threshold and v02 max ketogenic adapted.

 

http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance

 

Cheerz