Is motorcycling allowed?

[GrantMcD1]

Wait, is that for stock standard Tenere 700?

 

If so that's pretty interesting.

 

Here in NZ I've seen a few T700's on the road. They retail for 17,000 NZD (approx R189,000 at current exchange rate). So not too far off the 200k mark you mention.

 

However, the orange Austrians are considerably more expensive here. An Adventure 790R retails for 24,500 NZD (approx R272,000), so the Tenere is a way more affordable option.

 

I remember a while back I compared Husky & KTM prices between SA, NZ, Oz, the US, and Austria, and SA was significantly cheaper than all the others. Yes even Austria.

 

In fact here's the 790 R pricing, *normalized to ZAR on today's exchange rate:

 

SA - R210,000

NZ - R272,000*

Oz - R276,371*

USA - R228,600*

Austria - R299,500*

 

So I guess with the T700 it's not so much that it's being priced too high in SA, but more that the KTM is being priced rather competitively.

 

Not a bad problem to have

 Yip as I understand it that will be the price of the bike in stock trim.

 

I have chatted to a KTM dealer regarding their pricing and have heard why KTM is so competitively priced in SA. Apparently the SA market is very important to KTM as we produce high quality off-road riders and in general the riding conditions are tough on the bike. So if KTM has the market share in the South African market the bike is seeing as being built strong.

 

That being said despite KTM's being competitively priced, the offroad Yamahas are generally cheaper than the equivalent KTM...so why is the T700 less competitively priced than the rest of the Yamaha range? 

[patches]

 Yip as I understand it that will be the price of the bike in stock trim.

 

I have chatted to a KTM dealer regarding their pricing and have heard why KTM is so competitively priced in SA. Apparently the SA market is very important to KTM as we produce high quality off-road riders and in general the riding conditions are tough on the bike. So if KTM has the market share in the South African market the bike is seeing as being built strong.

 

That being said despite KTM's being competitively priced, the offroad Yamahas are generally cheaper than the equivalent KTM...so why is the T700 less competitively priced than the rest of the Yamaha range? 

 

Not so, interestingly enough.

 

A Yamaha WR450F (@R150,000) is about R22,000 more expensive than a KTM EXC-F 450 (@R128,000), and even R14,000 more than a KTM 450 Six-Days edition (@R136,000).

 

A Yamaha YZ250FX is about R7,000 more than a KTM EXC-F 250. It seems it's only the Yamaha 2-stroke enduro (YZ250X) that is cheaper than its KTM counterpart (KTM EXC 250 TPI), but that's possibly because the KTM is fuel injected, and the Austrians pretty much own the 2-stroke enduro market, so they name their price).

 

So it appears that Yamaha, in general, is taking the globalised pricing approach, and not adjusting to meet the competition in the local market.

 

Perhaps it's because the SA offroad-adventure market teeters on the two extremes. I'd estimate that small nimble 2-stroke KTM/Huskies and big fat BMW GS1200's account for the majority of the bike sales in the offroad-to-adventure segment, with very little going towards the dual-sport or lightweight adventure categories.

 

In Australia, NZ, and the US, those markets are pretty big. The Suzuki DR650 is like the equivalent of a 2-wheeled Hilux here. Both Aus and NZ love the 660 Tenere too.

 

Ultimately I guess it's up to the market research guru's. Whether they got it right or wrong is still to be seen, but either way I don't see the T700 becoming their bread and butter in a market where most riders would rather go for a GS1200.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by patches

[Grebel]

Since around the mid 2000s, manufacturers made the decision to focus on the big bore adventure bikes and stop development on the travel enduro segment. (650 singles). Sure you could still get an XR, DR, or KLR, but not much happened there ITO development or excitement.

 

BMW had the 800 but it didn't really fit in. Not really big enough to run with the big boys and maybe a bit porky and posh to run with the singles who were more off road focused.

 

IMHO the last good travel enduro was the KTM 640 A. The 690 is also a great bike but more of a big enduro bike. A rally kit adds fuel etc but at a hefty price.... Besides modified 525's etc not much filled that gap. Forums have been alight for ages with banter about no one filling that gap until recently with the launch of the 790 and the T7. Pity they priced them the way they did....

[WrightJnr]

Not so, interestingly enough.

 

A Yamaha WR450F (@R150,000) is about R22,000 more expensive than a KTM EXC-F 450 (@R128,000), and even R14,000 more than a KTM 450 Six-Days edition (@R136,000).

 

A Yamaha YZ250FX is about R7,000 more than a KTM EXC-F 250. It seems it's only the Yamaha 2-stroke enduro (YZ250X) that is cheaper than its KTM counterpart (KTM EXC 250 TPI), but that's possibly because the KTM is fuel injected, and the Austrians pretty much own the 2-stroke enduro market, so they name their price).

 

So it appears that Yamaha, in general, is taking the globalised pricing approach, and not adjusting to meet the competition in the local market.

 

Perhaps it's because the SA offroad-adventure market teeters on the two extremes. I'd estimate that small nimble 2-stroke KTM/Huskies and big fat BMW GS1200's account for the majority of the bike sales in the offroad-to-adventure segment, with very little going towards the dual-sport or lightweight adventure categories.

 

In Australia, NZ, and the US, those markets are pretty big. The Suzuki DR650 is like the equivalent of a 2-wheeled Hilux here. Both Aus and NZ love the 660 Tenere too.

 

Ultimately I guess it's up to the market research guru's. Whether they got it right or wrong is still to be seen, but either way I don't see the T700 becoming their bread and butter in a market where most riders would rather go for a GS1200.

 

 

I’m sure KTM is also using volume as a price play in SA. They sell loads more bikes that Yamaha and all the others. Also, KTM market their new year bikes well and turn over more upgrades. Yamaha owners don’t replace as much so need to extract more profit per unit.

[RocknRolla]

Yesterday received confirmation of a job in nelspruit next week. I am so excited to ride my bike there I couldn’t sleep last night...

Needless to say, I’m hitting sabie roads on the way back, some dirt to dullstroom....

[GrantMcD1]

Not so, interestingly enough.

 

A Yamaha WR450F (@R150,000) is about R22,000 more expensive than a KTM EXC-F 450 (@R128,000), and even R14,000 more than a KTM 450 Six-Days edition (@R136,000).

 

A Yamaha YZ250FX is about R7,000 more than a KTM EXC-F 250. It seems it's only the Yamaha 2-stroke enduro (YZ250X) that is cheaper than its KTM counterpart (KTM EXC 250 TPI), but that's possibly because the KTM is fuel injected, and the Austrians pretty much own the 2-stroke enduro market, so they name their price).

 

So it appears that Yamaha, in general, is taking the globalised pricing approach, and not adjusting to meet the competition in the local market.

 

Perhaps it's because the SA offroad-adventure market teeters on the two extremes. I'd estimate that small nimble 2-stroke KTM/Huskies and big fat BMW GS1200's account for the majority of the bike sales in the offroad-to-adventure segment, with very little going towards the dual-sport or lightweight adventure categories.

 

In Australia, NZ, and the US, those markets are pretty big. The Suzuki DR650 is like the equivalent of a 2-wheeled Hilux here. Both Aus and NZ love the 660 Tenere too.

 

Ultimately I guess it's up to the market research guru's. Whether they got it right or wrong is still to be seen, but either way I don't see the T700 becoming their bread and butter in a market where most riders would rather go for a GS1200.

 

 

Thanks Patches, I based my assumption that the Yamahas were cheaper based on the 2 strokes. Which would make sense because the Yamaha 2 strokes still have 2006 tech in them. ????

[Andymann]

I’m sure KTM is also using volume as a price play in SA. They sell loads more bikes that Yamaha and all the others. Also, KTM market their new year bikes well and turn over more upgrades. Yamaha owners don’t replace as much so need to extract more profit per unit.

 

Being a horder, I kept all my data from my time at Yamaha.... back then we used to religiously track the AMID stats - I pulled them up from Jul2010 - at that time, Yamaha had 40.5% of the MX market, followed by Honda with 31.8%, Kawasaki at 10.9% and KTM with 10.5%.

 

Our MX strategy was simple - keep the bikes cheap, the spares cheaper and offer really good Race Team backup.  That all changed when Bidvest took over.

 

The last set of Data I have, Yamaha had YTD sold 1940 units, KTM 691 and Suzuki 1062.  I use Suzuki because I chatted to the Motorcycle Manager of Suzuki a few weeks back just to catch up and he said Suzuki now outsells Yamaha by almost double.

 

What Bidvest got wrong was trying to market Yamaha as a Luxury brand - it was never going to work.

[patches]

I’m sure KTM is also using volume as a price play in SA. They sell loads more bikes that Yamaha and all the others. Also, KTM market their new year bikes well and turn over more upgrades. Yamaha owners don’t replace as much so need to extract more profit per unit.

 

Thanks Patches, I based my assumption that the Yamahas were cheaper based on the 2 strokes. Which would make sense because the Yamaha 2 strokes still have 2006 tech in them.

 

 

Being a horder, I kept all my data from my time at Yamaha.... back then we used to religiously track the AMID stats - I pulled them up from Jul2010 - at that time, Yamaha had 40.5% of the MX market, followed by Honda with 31.8%, Kawasaki at 10.9% and KTM with 10.5%.

 

Our MX strategy was simple - keep the bikes cheap, the spares cheaper and offer really good Race Team backup.  That all changed when Bidvest took over.

 

The last set of Data I have, Yamaha had YTD sold 1940 units, KTM 691 and Suzuki 1062.  I use Suzuki because I chatted to the Motorcycle Manager of Suzuki a few weeks back just to catch up and he said Suzuki now outsells Yamaha by almost double.

 

What Bidvest got wrong was trying to market Yamaha as a Luxury brand - it was never going to work.

 

Yeah, I guess looking at it that way, KTM's are like BMW 3 series in SA. They're not cheap, but people will still buy them, so based on the volume sold the price can drop.

 

As GrantMcD1 mentioned, SA has a big hard enduro scene. And the Austrians (KTM & Husky) almost have a monopoly on that market. So it makes sense that their sales would be up there.

 

NZ, Oz, and the US seem lean more towards the MX and GNCC styles of racing, and in general Japanese bikes outsell in that market.

 

The Kiwis still see the Austrians as the luxury brand and assume the high-maintenance mentality that comes with it.

 

This seems to be evident whenever I've been out for organised trail rides, popped over to the bike park, or gone for a ride on one of the popular off-roading beaches. There's about a 70:30 split between Japanese and Austrian bikes. In general the Austrian bikes never seem to be more than 3yrs old, and they're usually looking all shiny and pampered, whilst there are plenty of the Japanese bikes that must be close on 10yrs old, or older (like Suzuki RM 2-strokes), and one can see that many of them have had a hard life, yet they keep on going. So I guess that's why the Kiwis just keep trusting and buying those brands.

 

This also got me thinking to a more generalised observation I have made over the 4-odd years of living in NZ.

 

Kiwis and Aussies seem to be less brand and image conscious than us Saffers. This becomes immediately evident as one drives around their cities, towns, and suburbs. Loads of cars we would call "skedonks", parked outside houses worth R10m- R20m+. Station wagons are preferred over sedans as practicality outweighs sleek-design, and the humble Subaru Legacy station-wagon is pretty much the national-vehicle. 

 

Cities like Auckland, Sydney and Melbourne are more on the flashy side, with the cosmopolitan lifestyle. But still way fever luxury Germans cruising around than one would see in JHB.

 

And perhaps this relates in turn to the motorcycle industry.

 

[Spokey]

Since around the mid 2000s, manufacturers made the decision to focus on the big bore adventure bikes and stop development on the travel enduro segment. (650 singles). Sure you could still get an XR, DR, or KLR, but not much happened there ITO development or excitement.

BMW had the 800 but it didn't really fit in. Not really big enough to run with the big boys and maybe a bit porky and posh to run with the singles who were more off road focused.

IMHO the last good travel enduro was the KTM 640 A. The 690 is also a great bike but more of a big enduro bike. A rally kit adds fuel etc but at a hefty price.... Besides modified 525's etc not much filled that gap. Forums have been alight for ages with banter about no one filling that gap until recently with the launch of the 790 and the T7. Pity they priced them the way they did....

One of my mates here has just sold his 690 but kept both his older 640 adventure and 950. The reason above why I have kept my agricultural KLR and looking at the possible pricing of the Tenere700 the KLR is going to be a keeper.

I have just done the Eagle Mike Doohicky conversion and the suspension is upgraded. Perhaps I may even go in for the 700cc big bore kit. One could argue the cost effectiveness on an old bike/design, but it sure is cheaper than a new bike. In any event even 5 to 8 hp more on a KLR would be noticeable!!!(even though it will still look ancient)

[IceCreamMan]

One of my mates here has just sold his 690 but kept both his older 640 adventure and 950. The reason above why I have kept my agricultural KLR and looking at the possible pricing of the Tenere700 the KLR is going to be a keeper.

I have just done the Eagle Mike Doohicky conversion and the suspension is upgraded. Perhaps I may even go in for the 700cc big bore kit. One could argue the cost effectiveness on an old bike/design, but it sure is cheaper than a new bike. In any event even 5 to 8 hp more on a KLR would be noticeable!!!(even though it will still look ancient)

 

Spokey, not sure you the same spokey on Wilddogs ... however, if you thinking of the 685 conversion or larger speak to a guy called Groenie on wilddogs,the man knows KLRs initmiately. ...well maybe not intimately but you know what i mean.

[Andymann]

Yeah, I guess looking at it that way, KTM's are like BMW 3 series in SA. They're not cheap, but people will still buy them, so based on the volume sold the price can drop.

 

As GrantMcD1 mentioned, SA has a big hard enduro scene. And the Austrians (KTM & Husky) almost have a monopoly on that market. So it makes sense that their sales would be up there.

 

NZ, Oz, and the US seem lean more towards the MX and GNCC styles of racing, and in general Japanese bikes outsell in that market.

 

The Kiwis still see the Austrians as the luxury brand and assume the high-maintenance mentality that comes with it.

 

This seems to be evident whenever I've been out for organised trail rides, popped over to the bike park, or gone for a ride on one of the popular off-roading beaches. There's about a 70:30 split between Japanese and Austrian bikes. In general the Austrian bikes never seem to be more than 3yrs old, and they're usually looking all shiny and pampered, whilst there are plenty of the Japanese bikes that must be close on 10yrs old, or older (like Suzuki RM 2-strokes), and one can see that many of them have had a hard life, yet they keep on going. So I guess that's why the Kiwis just keep trusting and buying those brands.

 

This also got me thinking to a more generalised observation I have made over the 4-odd years of living in NZ.

 

Kiwis and Aussies seem to be less brand and image conscious than us Saffers. This becomes immediately evident as one drives around their cities, towns, and suburbs. Loads of cars we would call "skedonks", parked outside houses worth R10m- R20m+. Station wagons are preferred over sedans as practicality outweighs sleek-design, and the humble Subaru Legacy station-wagon is pretty much the national-vehicle. 

 

Cities like Auckland, Sydney and Melbourne are more on the flashy side, with the cosmopolitan lifestyle. But still way fever luxury Germans cruising around than one would see in JHB.

 

And perhaps this relates in turn to the motorcycle industry.

 

 

It's weird the South African image thing isn't it - everything revolves around what car you drive.  We recently did a substantial upgrade on the front of our house and we got quite a few landscapers in our Estate to quote.  Not one of them even bothered to submit a price.  We eventually got someone who was prepared to take on the project and since it's been completed two of the Landscapers in the Estate who we approached have come back to us asking if we need any additional work done.  My wife and I are convinced they looked at the Jazz and the Polo in the driveway, compared it too the BM's and Mercs of our neighbours, and thought we wouldn't be able to afford the project.  

 

I also get that feeling when I head off on a Sunday (or used to!) to Que Sera for a breakfast.  Almost as if all the modern Superbikes and Big Trailies are parked in the main parking lot and if you dare to encroach on them with your average Joe there's a more than a few sideways glances.

[Steven Knoetze (sk27)]

It's weird the South African image thing isn't it - everything revolves around what car you drive.  We recently did a substantial upgrade on the front of our house and we got quite a few landscapers in our Estate to quote.  Not one of them even bothered to submit a price.  We eventually got someone who was prepared to take on the project and since it's been completed two of the Landscapers in the Estate who we approached have come back to us asking if we need any additional work done.  My wife and I are convinced they looked at the Jazz and the Polo in the driveway, compared it too the BM's and Mercs of our neighbours, and thought we wouldn't be able to afford the project.  

 

I also get that feeling when I head off on a Sunday (or used to!) to Que Sera for a breakfast.  Almost as if all the modern Superbikes and Big Trailies are parked in the main parking lot and if you dare to encroach on them with your average Joe there's a more than a few sideways glances.

 

An easy trap to fall into unfortunately.

That's why I can appreciate an older well maintained bike over a brand new super-whatever dripping in brembo and ohlins, etc......

[Andymann]

An easy trap to fall into unfortunately.

That's why I can appreciate an older well maintained bike over a brand new super-whatever dripping in brembo and ohlins, etc......

 

 

 

The really funny thing that day at Que Sera was that I was on one of these....

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23804/lot/190/

 

And my Dad was on one of these....

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24494/lot/210/

 

but we were two old guys who rocked up on old bikes and please don't park next to my BMW or my Ducati.......

[Steven Knoetze (sk27)]

The really funny thing that day at Que Sera was that I was on one of these....

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23804/lot/190/

 

And my Dad was on one of these....

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24494/lot/210/

 

but we were two old guys who rocked up on old bikes and please don't park next to my BMW or my Ducati.......

 

Most of them are the same guys who use a throttle as an on/off switch because of the electronics they have at their disposal........

[Hairy]

The really funny thing that day at Que Sera was that I was on one of these....

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23804/lot/190/

 

And my Dad was on one of these....

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24494/lot/210/

 

but we were two old guys who rocked up on old bikes and please don't park next to my BMW or my Ducati.......

I am sorry, but the two of you were styling ... those cookie cutter motorcyclists must have just been jealous ...............

[sawystertrance]

It's weird the South African image thing isn't it - everything revolves around what car you drive.  We recently did a substantial upgrade on the front of our house and we got quite a few landscapers in our Estate to quote.  Not one of them even bothered to submit a price.  We eventually got someone who was prepared to take on the project and since it's been completed two of the Landscapers in the Estate who we approached have come back to us asking if we need any additional work done.  My wife and I are convinced they looked at the Jazz and the Polo in the driveway, compared it too the BM's and Mercs of our neighbours, and thought we wouldn't be able to afford the project.  

 

I also get that feeling when I head off on a Sunday (or used to!) to Que Sera for a breakfast.  Almost as if all the modern Superbikes and Big Trailies are parked in the main parking lot and if you dare to encroach on them with your average Joe there's a more than a few sideways glances.

That reminds me of the time I wne to a well-established repair business (No names no pack drill) just off Buitensingel street. I needed a small job done to repair scratches on the bumper on an old Honda Civic. I told them I had no insurance and would pay personally, whereupon I was told that they only do work for insurance companies. I had to wonder why..

Edited July 31, 2020 by sawystertrance