WTF CSA?

[River Rat]

I get the impression that you're just trolling and spoiling for an argument because I've never said that.

CSA has tried in the past to increase its membership base. However the way they went about it has left a bitter taste. Trying to force a merger with the PPA was not the way to do it. Patch is right in that CSA needs to review how they go about engaging.

However, that said the organistion does not exist to simply grow members. It exists to facilitate competitive cycling under the Olympic Code.

As cyclists its in our interest to support the structures that allows people like Mariska Strauss and Alan Hatherly to compete abroad.

How well that structure is run is also up to the members. 

So refusing to be a member, or participate in the structure isn't going to solve the problem

You should read your own posts, I think you told me to bugger off and concentrate on trail advocacy or something to that effect and you told PhillipV that he would be doing CSA a favour if he did not pay his fine and renew his membership. I guess you're feeling like you're being picked on ( or that I'm simply trolling) but the truth is that I see your attitude aligned with that of the CSA and it is a problem. Most of the anti-CSA points made here are trying to get CSA to understand what they're doing wrong as far as the majority of cyclists are concerned. The response is either to ignore it or to say fix it yourself, I can't speak for the majority but this attitude simply alienates me more. I believe that CSA needs our numbers to get Alan Hatherly and so many others to the Olympics, the only way forward is to engage us as equal partners in your endeavours or hold out your hand to the Lotto.

 

I have a lovely parallel and this might come as I surprise to you, in the late 1980s I tried to start a cycling section for our canoe club because so many of us were using the longer cycling events to train for Iron Man. We needed to be seeded to help us to ride in batches of equal ability, so I approached CSA to get the club affiliated, it was like talking to a brick wall. So I approached PPA who were basically barred by CSA from taking on members from outside Western Province, after 18 months of trying to convince CSA I gave up. At the same time there was another national organisation called CSA which stood for Canoeing South Africa. Canoeing was faced with a serious threat to their existence when a mad riverine landowner started shooting at canoeists paddling on the Crocodile River. Canoeing SA did not shrink away from the problem, they tackled it head on and convinced the entire country’s paddling fraternity that this issue needed to be defended in a court of law and they asked us to pay an additional R75 each towards a legal fund, which we did, the court case was won and a precedent for riverine law was set. This, from a bunch of volunteer administrators and today a number of posts in Canoeing SA are fully paid positions, they have shown for a number of years how to balance the need of elite racers with that of ordinary paddlers like myself ( we’re fondly referred to as fish and chips paddlers). At the recent world marathon champs SA produced K1 and K2 world champions to go with 24 medals in the masters, they also boast an Olympic Bronze medal. I have seen many of these medal winners spend their time on the banks of the rivers and dams coaching new comers to the sport because they know that it’s the fish & chips that is their ticket to the next world champs.  Perhaps you and CSA can learn from this?

[PhilipV]

When I was in primary school, our rugby sucked. We got our arse kicked every week. Them in st2 things changed, the dad's started helping out with the coaching,organizing tours and friendly games, gave their bakkies to transport school children to matches, mom's cut oranges into quarters and everyone went berserk on the sidelines. By st5 we were a rocking team and won everything. Three years of involvement and personal investment changed everything.

 

if CSA was run half as well as WPMTB (their affiliate) I would not have had an objection to CSA. But like living in Western Cape and being thankful for the provincial government being able to do things like fix roads etc, it feels okay to hand over money to WPMTB. Last year I was a licensed XCO racer, and WPMTB put massive amounts down and helped with fundraisers for WP riders to get to worlds. Massive win.

But CSA didn't contribute a cent.

 

And then the EWC Enduro crowd put their hands up to wpmtb and said they'll sort out the mess that was WP Gravity Enduro, and the guess who helped them set it up? the ooms and tannies who I saw at the XCO registration and races. These ooms and tannies had children who are riding XCO and XCM, and they pulled together to get things going again.

And these ooms and tannies are going berserk on the side of the laps as well, going to a schools race is actually insane.

Those ooms and tannies inspired me to do my bit as well, and that led to me volunteering as a marshal at the EWC races. It is a long day out, but it means that racers can have a seamless experience into and out of stages and their is someone to coordinate when some racer's pawpaw hits the fan.

So all in all the bureaucracy was a good thing, it led to a lekker Enduro series rising up from the ashes and WP XCO is great again.

But I still feel that the CSA affiliation is like a tax, with little offered in return, added to the insult of last year's fiasco.

Next year I'll pay my license again, because I know that the WPMTB contingent works for me, for junior riders and actually care about the riders and the sport.

[Frosty]

12-Jun a Whatsapp message was sent to the regional chairperson, followed up by an email. A few more emails were sent, nevermind the unanswered phone calls.

 

The Whatsapp message was read but no courtesy shown to even acknowledge the message.

 

Today, a message comes via our race director that the very same people are advising us to change the U17 boys from the 110km event to the 58km event, at the request of the CSA technical committee. So what happened to all the preceeding communications, something that we anticipated, but couldn’t react to.

 

What happens to the extra money they paid to enter the long distance? Perhaps we should deduct the fees owing to the region and use that to refund the boys (or their parents).

 

So while some regions are flourishing, others are as good as CSA... good at demanding payment of fees due.

[Rolling Stone]

12-Jun a Whatsapp message was sent to the regional chairperson, followed up by an email. A few more emails were sent, nevermind the unanswered phone calls.

The Whatsapp message was read but no courtesy shown to even acknowledge the message.

Today, a message comes via our race director that the very same people are advising us to change the U17 boys from the 110km event to the 58km event, at the request of the CSA technical committee. So what happened to all the preceeding communications, something that we anticipated, but couldn’t react to.

What happens to the extra money they paid to enter the long distance? Perhaps we should deduct the fees owing to the region and use that to refund the boys (or their parents).

So while some regions are flourishing, others are as good as CSA... good at demanding payment of fees due.

Hi Frosty

This is when you need to get the clubs in your region together and make some changes at the next AGM.

Changing down to 58 km for the youth's is the right thing.

good luck with your race, you should now see that some more youths will enter.

[Patchelicious]

Hi Frosty

This is when you need to get the clubs in your region together and make some changes at the next AGM.

Changing down to 58 km for the youth's is the right thing.

good luck with your race, you should now see that some more youths will enter.

With all due respect, Frosty is the one guy who could tell everybody else what they SHOULD do.

[Danger Dassie]

Hi Frosty

This is when you need to get the clubs in your region together and make some changes at the next AGM.

Changing down to 58 km for the youth's is the right thing.

good luck with your race, you should now see that some more youths will enter.

Did you not see that is exactly what he could or would do had there been a response to his query? 

While changing down may be the right thing, your answer does no favour and frankly comes over as deflective and dishonest.

 

Straight up, when and where is the next AGM and what is the process?

[DieselnDust]

When I was in primary school, our rugby sucked. We got our arse kicked every week. Them in st2 things changed, the dad's started helping out with the coaching,organizing tours and friendly games, gave their bakkies to transport school children to matches, mom's cut oranges into quarters and everyone went berserk on the sidelines. By st5 we were a rocking team and won everything. Three years of involvement and personal investment changed everything.

if CSA was run half as well as WPMTB (their affiliate) I would not have had an objection to CSA. But like living in Western Cape and being thankful for the provincial government being able to do things like fix roads etc, it feels okay to hand over money to WPMTB. Last year I was a licensed XCO racer, and WPMTB put massive amounts down and helped with fundraisers for WP riders to get to worlds. Massive win.

But CSA didn't contribute a cent.

And then the EWC Enduro crowd put their hands up to wpmtb and said they'll sort out the mess that was WP Gravity Enduro, and the guess who helped them set it up? the ooms and tannies who I saw at the XCO registration and races. These ooms and tannies had children who are riding XCO and XCM, and they pulled together to get things going again.

And these ooms and tannies are going berserk on the side of the laps as well, going to a schools race is actually insane.

Those ooms and tannies inspired me to do my bit as well, and that led to me volunteering as a marshal at the EWC races. It is a long day out, but it means that racers can have a seamless experience into and out of stages and their is someone to coordinate when some racer's pawpaw hits the fan.

So all in all the bureaucracy was a good thing, it led to a lekker Enduro series rising up from the ashes and WP XCO is great again.

But I still feel that the CSA affiliation is like a tax, with little offered in return, added to the insult of last year's fiasco.

Next year I'll pay my license again, because I know that the WPMTB contingent works for me, for junior riders and actually care about the riders and the sport.

Great post Philip! This is attitude we should have if we want our sport to flourish as a competitive endeavor. Thanks for your contribution.

 

CSA affiliation fees are a tax. I’ve moved on from moaning about it. It’s not the same as PPA membership fees since that is an entirely self funded org. I expect value from that. I have no expectation of value from CSA. I just expect that they fulfill the mandate given.

I’m hoping to see more people from wpcycling on the CSA EXCO as they are showing they can do the job.

[Patchelicious]

Great post Philip! This is attitude we should have if we want our sport to flourish as a competitive endeavor. Thanks for your contribution.

 

CSA affiliation fees are a tax. I’ve moved on from moaning about it. It’s not the same as PPA membership fees since that is an entirely self funded org. I expect value from that. I have no expectation of value from CSA. I just expect that they fulfill the mandate given.

I’m hoping to see more people from wpcycling on the CSA EXCO as they are showing they can do the job.

Have they fulfilled their given mandate?

[kosmonooit]

At the end of the day, I would like to see funds spent by ExCo and other members on traveling and accommodations and allowances, and where they went and for what for. 

[GrantMcD1]

I ride off-road motorbikes and it seems both the cycling community and motorbike community share the same sentiments regarding the respective governing bodies, CSA and MSA. I’m still new to the cycling scene so I’m unsure of the details but does having a CSA license mean you are covered from a medical perspective at CSA sanctioned events?

 

This is what MSA offers and it is the only benefit of being a member.

 

Also if I want to compete in CSA sanctioned events can I just purchase a day license as I will only do a handful of events a year so if this is an option it should work out cheaper?

[Rolling Stone]

Did you not see that is exactly what he could or would do had there been a response to his query? 

While changing down may be the right thing, your answer does no favour and frankly comes over as deflective and dishonest.

 

Straight up, when and where is the next AGM and what is the process?

 

Are you  a CSA member affiliated to a region?

If you are you can talk directly to your club or region.

Ask for a copy of the constitution

Ask for the latest financials

These should be available to all members on request.

Make sure you or your club gets an invite to the next AGM.

 

The constitution and structures of all regions differ  bit, you should get guidance from your region's constitution.

Ask to sit in on the next exco meeting.

Just do not be surprised if they try and coopt you into a vacant position.

[Danger Dassie]

Are you  a CSA member affiliated to a region?

If you are you can talk directly to your club or region.

Ask for a copy of the constitution

Ask for the latest financials

These should be available to all members on request.

Make sure you or your club gets an invite to the next AGM.

 

The constitution and structures of all regions differ  bit, you should get guidance from your region's constitution.

Ask to sit in on the next exco meeting.

Just do not be surprised if they try and coopt you into a vacant position.

Answer the question directly without deflection and obfuscation please. 

 

Based on past experience and related by Frosty, region does not answer. So you as a representative of the region are now being asked.

When and where is the AGM? 

 

And fyi any constitution and financials should be available publicly. Like for example the website, which is nothing more than a landing page currently.

cgccycling.co.za 

The facebook page, of which there are two, has been purged of a lot of content. Twitter account, dormant. 

The CSA website has conflicting info on wether or not Gauteng actually has an exco representive. 

[Danger Dassie]

I ride off-road motorbikes and it seems both the cycling community and motorbike community share the same sentiments regarding the respective governing bodies, CSA and MSA. I’m still new to the cycling scene so I’m unsure of the details but does having a CSA license mean you are covered from a medical perspective at CSA sanctioned events?

 

This is what MSA offers and it is the only benefit of being a member.

 

Also if I want to compete in CSA sanctioned events can I just purchase a day license as I will only do a handful of events a year so if this is an option it should work out cheaper?

`

You only need to purchase a day licence, a few events will actually end up more than taking out an annual membership though. So the cheaper option of membership is probably more viable. 

Also it's not clear if a day licence gives you access to the insurance on offer by CSA. The website is unfortunately not intuitive at all, it takes a good while to navigate and find the correct info.

 

Note, there is a difference between a normal membership and full racing licence as a member.

 

A full racing licence allows you to compete on a provincial and national level within your respective age cat/discipline. NB: this then puts you in the unenviable nonsense of "sanctioned events" and the "forbidden race ruling'' 

If you really want to be a top dog, you can apply for an international UCI licence on the strength of your full race licence.

There is a contention that the sanctioning aspect only really applies to international licence holders and can actually be applied domestically at the discretion of the national federation (CSA) but there is basically no engagement on this. Bar a copy and paste presser every few months with a finger wagging at any local amateur racers who dare violate the sancity of sanctioned events.

[DieselnDust]

`

You only need to purchase a day licence, a few events will actually end up more than taking out an annual membership though. So the cheaper option of membership is probably more viable. 

Also it's not clear if a day licence gives you access to the insurance on offer by CSA. The website is unfortunately not intuitive at all, it takes a good while to navigate and find the correct info.

 

Note, there is a difference between a normal membership and full racing licence as a member.

 

A full racing licence allows you to compete on a provincial and national level within your respective age cat/discipline. NB: this then puts you in the unenviable nonsense of "sanctioned events" and the "forbidden race ruling'' 

If you really want to be a top dog, you can apply for an international UCI licence on the strength of your full race licence.

There is a contention that the sanctioning aspect only really applies to international licence holders and can actually be applied domestically at the discretion of the national federation (CSA) but there is basically no engagement on this. Bar a copy and paste presser every few months with a finger wagging at any local amateur racers who dare violate the sancity of sanctioned events.

 

 

wrt to the bit in bold,

1) Day License gives you access to the CSA insurance for the day. There is limitations on the policy wrt to this so best to request a copy of the policy doc and review it. Whether you get a response or not I guess is up to your regional rep. You could also email an exco member form another region

 

2) there is no difference to membership vs full racing license at a regional level for all categories excluding Elite Men and Women and Junior Men and Women who require full racing license at all times to compete in sanctioned events. Other age categories only need a membership. This was implemented to promote growth in age category racing.

At a National level any rider wishing to compete in age category events is required to have a full racing license to participate in e..g National XCO champs, 

[DieselnDust]

You should read your own posts, I think you told me to bugger off and concentrate on trail advocacy or something to that effect and you told PhillipV that he would be doing CSA a favour if he did not pay his fine and renew his membership. I guess you're feeling like you're being picked on ( or that I'm simply trolling) but the truth is that I see your attitude aligned with that of the CSA and it is a problem. Most of the anti-CSA points made here are trying to get CSA to understand what they're doing wrong as far as the majority of cyclists are concerned. The response is either to ignore it or to say fix it yourself, I can't speak for the majority but this attitude simply alienates me more. I believe that CSA needs our numbers to get Alan Hatherly and so many others to the Olympics, the only way forward is to engage us as equal partners in your endeavours or hold out your hand to the Lotto.

 

I have a lovely parallel and this might come as I surprise to you, in the late 1980s I tried to start a cycling section for our canoe club because so many of us were using the longer cycling events to train for Iron Man. We needed to be seeded to help us to ride in batches of equal ability, so I approached CSA to get the club affiliated, it was like talking to a brick wall. So I approached PPA who were basically barred by CSA from taking on members from outside Western Province, after 18 months of trying to convince CSA I gave up. At the same time there was another national organisation called CSA which stood for Canoeing South Africa. Canoeing was faced with a serious threat to their existence when a mad riverine landowner started shooting at canoeists paddling on the Crocodile River. Canoeing SA did not shrink away from the problem, they tackled it head on and convinced the entire country’s paddling fraternity that this issue needed to be defended in a court of law and they asked us to pay an additional R75 each towards a legal fund, which we did, the court case was won and a precedent for riverine law was set. This, from a bunch of volunteer administrators and today a number of posts in Canoeing SA are fully paid positions, they have shown for a number of years how to balance the need of elite racers with that of ordinary paddlers like myself ( we’re fondly referred to as fish and chips paddlers). At the recent world marathon champs SA produced K1 and K2 world champions to go with 24 medals in the masters, they also boast an Olympic Bronze medal. I have seen many of these medal winners spend their time on the banks of the rivers and dams coaching new comers to the sport because they know that it’s the fish & chips that is their ticket to the next world champs.  Perhaps you and CSA can learn from this?

 

 

this is a great example of passion being channeled to achieve the desired outcome. Any chance you could convince the same people to take cycling as seriously and tackle the problems? Asking with sincerity

[Danger Dassie]

wrt to the bit in bold,

1) Day License gives you access to the CSA insurance for the day. There is limitations on the policy wrt to this so best to request a copy of the policy doc and review it. Whether you get a response or not I guess is up to your regional rep. You could also email an exco member form another region

 

2) there is no difference to membership vs full racing license at a regional level for all categories excluding Elite Men and Women and Junior Men and Women who require full racing license at all times to compete in sanctioned events. Other age categories only need a membership. This was implemented to promote growth in age category racing.

At a National level any rider wishing to compete in age category events is required to have a full racing license to participate in e..g National XCO champs, 

Where is this stated then?

Because then someone is talking porky pies. To have a seeding at national events you need a provincial ranking and seeding index.

 

From the site itself; 

 

https://www.cyclingsa.com/membership/

 

Licence structure explained

Full Racing License

This category of license is for riders from the age of 17-years-old who wish to be eligible for provincial and national selection and respective colours award. The bearer of a full license is entitled to partake in national championships or series race and be seeded accordingly. Those of who race in the UCI categories (Junior, U23 and Elite) earn UCI points, which will assist them in being seeded at future UCI category events, UCI World Cups and UCI World Championships. The cost of a full racing license is R450 per year, and the applicant has to be member of an affiliated club, as well as be a registered member of Cycling SA. These MUST be done simultaneously for a Full Racing License to be valid. Full Racing Licenses are only valid from 1 January to 31 December each year.

Membership

As from 1 November 2017, a membership of Cycling SA costs R250 per year. A membership holder is entitled to enter any event, irrespective of discipline, without having to purchase a day license. A member is allowed to participate in a national series event, but will not be eligible for national or provincial selection. A membership of Cycling SA is the most basic form of license and is an agreement of the rider to abide by the rules of the event in which they participate.

Day License

The Day-license is designed to allow the absolute newcomers of the sport to participate within the rules and regulations of the sport. These participants, who do not hold a full license or membership, need to purchase a day license. By purchasing a day license the rider agrees to participate in the event and abide with the rules of the event and those of Cycling SA for that day. A day license costs R35 and is only valid for one day.

Membership downloads

• Procedure to Apply for an International Racing License

Procedure to Apply for an International Racing Licence

 

Cyclists who wish to race abroad, and/or participate in local UCI events are required to obtain an International Racing Licence, after applying for permission to race in the international events.

 

Applications need to be made in writing to Cycling South Africa, and must be accompanied by an insurance policy and the policy’s exclusions (terms and conditions). 

 

The rider needs to have a valid Domestic Racing License. Youth riders (U16) are only required to become members and will receive all the benefits of a domestic racing license.

 

The rider needs to forward their departure and arrivals dates.

 

The International Licence, which comes at no additional cost, will only be issued once Cycling SA has received a copy of the cyclist’s insurance and the policy’s exclusions (Terms and Conditions).  No International Licenses will be issued without proof of valid Medical, Travel and Repatriation Insurances.

 

 

As per Cycling South Africa RULES:

 

1.3.1.5 INTERNATIONAL LICENSE - A rider has to apply for permission to race in international events.

 

1.3.1.5.1 No international License will be issued without the proof of Medical, Travel (when racing outside the South African Borders) and Repatriation insurance.

 

1.3.1.5.2     All licenses will be issued with ‘valid from’ and ‘valid until’ fields which will be determined by the validity of the Insurance provided.

 

1.3.1.5.3     All riders from a Professional Continental and Pro Tour team whose particulars reflect on the UCI website as a registered member will be issued with an INTERNATIONAL LICENSE when applying for a RACING LICENSE.

 

1.3.1.5.4     No additional costs will apply to be issued with an INTERNATIONAL LICENSE. 

 

1.3.1.5.5     CYCLINGSA will issue a letter of permission to participate internationally reflecting all insurance particulars.

 

1.3.1.5.6     Applications need to be made in writing to CYCLINGSA accompanied by the insurance policy.