Neil Neil Neil Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 With respect you're doing a fair amount of pitchforking yourself. It doesn't help anything.BURN!!!
Tristand Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 Clearly inter-school events are deeply discriminatory towards homeschooled children. And therefore, they should all be banned. No more inter-school rugby, inter-school athletics, etc. But seriously, it seems both sides are being pig-headed. The event is about schools competing not individuals, it is valuable to have that sense of belonging to something greater than oneself. However, I also think the series is being silly in not allowing her to affiliate with a school in the area. Just put down a few ground rules and everyone will be happy.
Slowbee Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 https://community.bikehub.co.za/topic/175768-homeschoolers-not-welcome-at-spur-mtb-league/?p=3316871 To continue with a different but related debate, one of the things that pops up with the response on the above post, brings into question the idea of high school and exactly what school is and is not. Am I correct in saying that any school can enter ? And any school can enter as many riders as they want to amass as many points as they can ?
Traveler Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 https://community.bikehub.co.za/topic/175768-homeschoolers-not-welcome-at-spur-mtb-league/?p=3316871 To continue with a different but related debate, one of the things that pops up with the response on the above post, brings into question the idea of high school and exactly what school is and is not. Am I correct in saying that any school can enter ? And any school can enter as many riders as they want to amass as many points as they can ?I think a debate will be a constructive change to 27 pages of mostly single sided arguments with hardly progress of concessions made to even consider the value of alternative views. Heck, we still have people who went to KFC tonight cause they are upset at Spur, as if the local franchise holder made the call. The official organizer has made a statement as to why HS is currently excluded in Gauteng. Anybody that has ridden at a Trailseeker will now the frustration of sitting behind people who cannot handle their bikes and you need to deal with congestion. If you’ve ever been to GP Spur School event you’d be floored by the amount of kids on the trails, and I take of my hat to any organization that can manage that as well. I also understand why some HS parents feel their kids are being discriminated against. But you consider that you need to work with your child towards a goal, and where you cannot be included choose other cycling goals, The Spur School Series counts ZERO towards National Colours, will not land you on a pro team. You want that, get your child to compete in UCI/CSA sanctioned events. I speak from experience, my son is an extremely good swimmer, but not short course, he specializes in Lifesaving and openwater swimming, but at 10yrs of age we are very-very limited as to the amount of events he can attend. His school does not even acknowledge swimming, so he goes to a Club, and it is a 100km round trip for me each night to get to the club. We need to travel from GP to the coast for many Gala’s in order to obtain national colours and qualify. Because he competes in LSA events we cannot take him to inter school events because he does not attend those schools, he is not even allowed a ghost lane. So we all need to suck it up in some way... This thread can be compared to a duck on a pond with one leg tied to a rock.... swimming in a pointless circle. The organisers have conceded they will meet with HS parents to discuss options.
Pure Savage Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 I still think it’s unfair forcing these poor school kids to mtb, should throw in some road events. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ChrisF Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 I still think it’s unfair forcing these poor school kids to mtb, should throw in some road events. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk WHAT !! Next you would expect these poor kids to walk two blocks to school !!! Talk about cruel and unusual punishment ....
ChrisF Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 In the Gauteng series is there a limited amount of schools that can participate; do the organizers limit the amount of schools because there are so many participants in each race that there is over-congestion? If a school has only one pupil who wants to cycle, because all the rest are focusing too much on rugby and netball, would that pupil be allowed to cycle in the series? On the one hand, this pupil goes to a real school so should be allowed to participate, but on the other hand is not in a team, and "individuals do not qualify for our program" In the Western Cape it is actually EASY to add a school to the series. One email, confirm the school that your kid is in, they check up that it is actually a "real school", and add the name to the list ..... at least I should know for sure on Tuesday ..... Worth noting that the reply email did WELCOME other kids from the school to also participate in the series, and I will communicate this to the principal as soon as the school is listed. Would be nice if a few of Maritz's class mates can ride with him. Let's not forget - school sports are only a result of work put in by other parents to set up a system .... Would be interesting to know the process for adding a "real school" to the list of schools in other provinces.
ChrisF Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 Stigma of homeschooling .... this term has been wielded like a weapon by some on this thread. WHY is there such a stigma to this concept ? WHY do some parents believe this it THE answer ? WHY are some parents so set against it ? And possibly more importantly - where do the "1%" figure come from ? I have NO idea of the actual percentage of kids being home-schooled in SA. I do know that there are a great number of organisations tapping this market. These groups even have their own interschool events, with LARGE numbers of students attending !! Somehow I do believe the real number far exceed "1%" .... (okay the 1% used in this thread referred to participants in the SPUR league...) Still, WHY go this route ? Maybe first just a bit of personal information - in the 90's I lectured at a college, dealing with many school drop-outs (guess that term may be politically incorrect by now..) The next 9 years I lectured engineering students at a technikon. Fair to say I have a bit of insight into the "results" of the schooling system ..... Under the old curriculum the average student was well prepared for higher education (technikon and university). The A-level students from Namibia where home schooling has a long history, were significantly BETTER prepared for higher education !! Was it due to a better academic standard, or simply due to the discipline of studying at their own pace ? Under the new curriculum the mathematical and analytical skills of matriculants DROPPED !! Using the same tests and exams the pass rates for fundamental subjects dropped by 15 to 20% !! Fast forward. Been working in the engineering sector for the last 11 years. Obviously tasked with mentoring our young engineers. MOST interesting to hear them talk of their peers, and how they experienced the home schooled group in university .... Back to homeschooling, and my experience with this. My sister home schooled her second son and is currently home schooling her daughter. In both cases for the last 3 to 4 years of high school. Why did she take her kids out of school ? Sadly, for the wrong reasons .... It was not one single reason. The son was put on ritelin for the wrong reasons, and the real help was not given, then a death in the family and the kid could not cope .... few issues at school .... long story short - homeschooled, got his matric, and never got the help he needed, and still avoiding life issues ..... NOT good to see where this is heading .... The daughter was on an academic scholarship. And then the wheels fell off .... I dont know what the best solution would have been, but not sure homeschooling was the answer. Most interesting having a background in higher education and seeing the homeschooling system from this distance. Couple of things that stand out : - A parent is seldom a good teacher .... or should I rather say it is difficult enough for a parent to put on the hat of a teacher for a few hours, then flip the switch and become a good parent ... I doubt a kid has the ability nor maturity to appreciate this complexity. - A parent deserves the right to be a PARENT. Sad when this opportunity is lost by trying to fulfill other rolls .... - The kids loose out big time on social skills ... now this IS a massive two edged sword !! By all means, I would love for Maritz to miss out on the druggies and bullies etc ..... BUT, learning to deal with the bad stuff is probably just as important as learning social skills. And the structured environment of a school is actually good to prepare them for further study and the working life - and then I remind myself of the homeshooled Namibian kids that managed well enough (so NO, I am not blind to those that benefited from this system) - Academics - my pet HATE of homeschooling - subject choice !! HOW can any responsible organisation allow a kid to enroll for a group of subjects which prepares them for NO further education !?!?!? You need maths and science for certain courses, as you need biology for others, economic subjects for others, etc. Yet, kids are allowed to take a cluster of "soft" subjects that allows them entry into no further education ! Okay, I have my thoughts on parents that allow these subject choices .... SO .... I have seen many students where homeschooling WORKED for them. They are productive members of society. I have seen what a dismal mess it can be when homeschooling is used as an escape mechanism, and the real issues are not dealt with .... The ONE reason I wont ever go this route - a kid has the right to a teacher and a parent. And a parent is that one that is supposed to provide moral support when the kid struggles in school ... Just not sure how a single person fulfills both rolls, without confusing the heck out of a kid .... PS - my BIL (wife's side) three daughters went to Model C schools. The mom was there in the afternoon and made sure the kids got all possible support. Two made the top 20 list in their matric results, sadly the other only managed 7 A's .... There IS more than one way to assist your kids in their education ..... OKAY .... so there are my thoughts on this hot topic I try my best to be open minded and to learn from others. And as such would like to hear from others that have gone this route .. why did you decide on homeschooling ? What works for you ? What are your challanges ? And I am off to go ride a fun-ride with Maritz. Possibly our first ride in the rain ....
BaGearA Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 I think a debate will be a constructive change to 27 pages of mostly single sided arguments with hardly progress of concessions made to even consider the value of alternative views. Heck, we still have people who went to KFC tonight cause they are upset at Spur, as if the local franchise holder made the call. The official organizer has made a statement as to why HS is currently excluded in Gauteng. Anybody that has ridden at a Trailseeker will now the frustration of sitting behind people who cannot handle their bikes and you need to deal with congestion. If you’ve ever been to GP Spur School event you’d be floored by the amount of kids on the trails, and I take of my hat to any organization that can manage that as well. I also understand why some HS parents feel their kids are being discriminated against. But you consider that you need to work with your child towards a goal, and where you cannot be included choose other cycling goals, The Spur School Series counts ZERO towards National Colours, will not land you on a pro team. You want that, get your child to compete in UCI/CSA sanctioned events. I speak from experience, my son is an extremely good swimmer, but not short course, he specializes in Lifesaving and openwater swimming, but at 10yrs of age we are very-very limited as to the amount of events he can attend. His school does not even acknowledge swimming, so he goes to a Club, and it is a 100km round trip for me each night to get to the club. We need to travel from GP to the coast for many Gala’s in order to obtain national colours and qualify. Because he competes in LSA events we cannot take him to inter school events because he does not attend those schools, he is not even allowed a ghost lane. So we all need to suck it up in some way... This thread can be compared to a duck on a pond with one leg tied to a rock.... swimming in a pointless circle. The organisers have conceded they will meet with HS parents to discuss options.
Shaun Green Posted May 12, 2018 Author Posted May 12, 2018 In the Gauteng series is there a limited amount of schools that can participate; do the organizers limit the amount of schools because there are so many participants in each race that there is over-congestion? If a school has only one pupil who wants to cycle, because all the rest are focusing too much on rugby and netball, would that pupil be allowed to cycle in the series? On the one hand, this pupil goes to a real school so should be allowed to participate, but on the other hand is not in a team, and "individuals do not qualify for our program"There are a number of schools with only one rider. Allowing a homeschooler to join the loner would result in a team. We know of willing schools of this type.
nickc Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 So at the Spur event today in Vereeniging during the prize giving they asked for a show of hands all those who thought that home schoolers should be allowed to compete. I promptly put up my hand and according to the announcer there were three of us It was a large crowd at the prize giving so it was not an overwhelming show of support unfortuantly. They did however say they were inviting comments on it via their FB page and Website.
Skylark Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 So at the Spur event today in Vereeniging during the prize giving they asked for a show of hands all those who thought that home schoolers should be allowed to compete. I promptly put up my hand and according to the announcer there were three of us It was a large crowd at the prize giving so it was not an overwhelming show of support unfortuantly. They did however say they were inviting comments on it via their FB page and Website.How can they do that, the rules for sport aren't democratically choosen. Show of hands for allowing EPO use for riders in this series, great 65% put up their hands in agreement good to go... Show of hands for cyclists using tazers to slow down fast riders to gain advantage, ok looks like that ones in as well... Seeing Spur is the title sponsor we need to hammer them hard on social media
Thor Buttox Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 I posted something a few days ago that was misconstrued and not 'fonted' properly so let me clarify. As a coach, one of the most frustrating things if all. Is the intractability of parents. I have just gone through a ridiculous set of circumstances where a national level event was mostly ruined by a parent who was unable to understand that the WANTS of an individual cannot interfere with the NEEDS of the team, or that the parent wasn't wrong about a specific circumstance. I have no comment at all about the merits of home-schooling one way or the other. Separate that out straight away. I am only going to use logic here. 1) in any competition, the rules are structured in a way to benefit the majority and to provide a safe environment for optimal performance. In Aus hey have actually just stopped up to 13year old boys from competing nationally to prevent long-term performance issues. They have also banned performance kit for all 12 amd unders to keep the ongoing war for minimal performance improvements at massive cost down to a reasonable age. But 13 year old girls can compete still as they are 'more mature' than boys. Physically, yes, but to bitter experience, emotionally no (see above) The point is 'wanting' someone to compete is not the same as 'needing' them. In this home-school situation, in the specific situation, which Meurant did put succinctly, it does not appear that the child needs to compete. There are other alternatives, and any exclusion is for the enhancement of the sport in a team environment, and the parent has decided to exclude the child from a team. The 'I want her to be part of a team' is not the organisers issue, it is the parent's. 2) the Exclusion/Prejudice angle The second principal is whether or not their is prejudice to home schools in Gauteng, and whether the treatment of home-schoolers by other provinces is even relevant to the discussion. If the issue is numbers in Gauteng, then there is NO discussion. Every single league in every sport has category adjustments if the numbers are too large. English Premier League, Super 15,whatever. It isn't good enough to say 'My son wants to play for XYZ' when you have deliberately chosen to live in the area of PQR. BUT: if the child is good enough, as this young lady appears to be, and could play for Man U, the parent can't complain if they only want to play for Anonymous United. 3) Now that is a team sport environment, which is slightly different I know, so let's take athlwtics. At the Olympics, the Commonwealth Games, the World Student Games, the South African Champs - somewhere down that spectrum the numbers become small enough that the teams themselves become representative of the full talent base. By that I mean there can be 10 Americans all faster than the first Kazakh, or whatever. So they have restricted access - at the Olympics to 2/3, at Commonwealth to 4, etc. At some point the numbers are few enough that there may be just a time based qualification and as many who qualify can compete. But you cannot complain if you want to get to the final and there are 4 Aussies in your way at the Comm Games and you are in a team of one, and don't meet the qualifying criteria (even if that criteria is not performance based, like you are from Kazakhstan) I guess what I am saying is life ain't fair. But now, number 4: And this is the only where I may turn to defend the participation of this young lady:- I do not know the full numbers issue, Meurant does say there are concerns in Gauteng- I do not know if they limit current competing school team sizes (eg do the top Gauteng schools have to have a team of 4, say, or can any number of kids from that school compete?) - do the schools themselves provide assistance to the infrastructure of the series in terms of capital/officials/development/sustainability/representivity, especially in South Africa. This may be controversial but, EVEN IN MY EXPERIENCE HERE, it is the more weathly, private school parents who give less of a sh=t about the team and social requirements and more about their own darling child, to the detriment to the sport AND their own child's development. Home schoolers may be very nice people, but unless they, as a group abide with the social requirements they will cause issues. I will take a minor bet that a 'team' of individuals with personal agendas will be a disaster, and that is why 'ghost riding' is more logical, if possible. My summary is that most arguments on this thread have been black and white. Under certain conditions, in situations where the participation numberscan be controlled (for now) I would say there is no harm for this young lady to participate. But that may not be the case, or may not become the case. I hope Mr Green is flexible enough to understand the organiser's intent with the series and not to try force a round peg. The wants of his SPECIFIC child do not outweigh the list of needs for the sport in Gauteng. But he does have a right to have had that explained to him, and if a solution can be mutually found, good luck. What I do not get though, through all of this is how the hell are people that stupid that they go after the sponsor especially when the issue is not as simple as it appears? What a bunch of total, utter morons. It must be the education system.
ChrisF Posted May 13, 2018 Posted May 13, 2018 Thor thank you for a very good post. There certainly are many factors involved. And most certainly, the only GIVEN is that the bad publicity to the title sponsor is NOT going to help the situation.
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