Spinnekop Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 With regards to a race like the CHOC, I tried to get as much background as I could. The whole CSA, Officials, registering, sanctioning etc is rather complex and gets just more complex as CSA tries to provide for and acomodate every race.I have only been at a region for 9 months and I definately do not understand the processes and cost implications fully. I can assure you that our admin lady that has only been in the job for 3 months understands even less and will battle to explain the inner workings of the whole process to a new race organiser. That is partly why more and more of the processes are being centralised at CSA. To get back to a race like the CHOC. At CSA level it is very difficult to make an exception for every request, you know where that will lead. CSA is of late trying to apply the rules consistently, I am told.As I understand it these are all different processes that you choose to partake in or not.Listing as an Event Organiser: The event organiser registers on the web, No Charge. Listing on Calendar: The process to be listed on CSA calendar is very simple, and the is done by the event organiser online. There are fees associated to this, but these can be negotiated in good faith with the provincial body in which the event is hosted. Sanctioning: This event would pay R250 and receive public liability insurance – free of charge to the value of R20million and an official sanctioning certificate. In addition to this, the event is listed on our national calendar and promoted via emails to our data base on upcoming evens. An event has the option to sanction or not. If not, only full licensed riders cannot participate – normal Cycling SA members can participate, but they will not be able to claim on the medical insurance, in case of injury, as the event is not sanctioned. Commissaires: I do not think that the CHOC event has ever pitched itself as a race with prize money so why would they need commissaires at an additional cost of R750 + Travel costs per commissaire – on request a technical delegate can be sent to inspect the course if guidance is required? I am not sure what really transpired with regards to officials, but my gut feeling is that there was definitely some miscommunication in this regard. JOC: Provincial JOC’s, are starting to insist on the correct documentation and letter of support from the federation involved. This is not a CSA thing, it is a SAPS requirement. I doubt that the handing out of shooters was mentioned anywhere in this aplication . Lets rather keep that to ourselves. Other events associated to CHOC have seen the real benefit and cost saving by being registered on the Cycling SA calendar. Yes there’s the day license and levies, but in hindsight then again we could take that into consideration and ‘donate’ some of those fees directly to CHOC or to a cycling related initiative in our region that serves children or something like that. Just imagine if every race organiser wants to tellus exactly how to spend our income. But it is something we will consider, especially with races like 947 for instance, they certainly want to know where their money is going. This just highlights the need to establish communication with event organisers, acknowledge the past but move forward in the best interests of the sport. Good post. Thank you for the info.
Face Plant Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 I am almost certain that all event organizers will agree that they would prefer to have their events sanctioned by CSA however it comes down to return on investment. At this stage there is none! Event insurance is a plus but any event organizer worth their salt will have that in place even if their event is not sanctioned so i am not too sure if i would be too worried about that. it is true that you get the benefit of having your event on the race calendar but is that really worth anything? i guess that is a matter of opinion. I do think that CSA is trying really hard to get their sh!t together i can at least say that its the case on a provincial level but until they do get it together they are really going to struggle to motivate event organizers to sanction their events.
DieselnDust Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 Not everything is looked at from just an ROI perspective. There is also compliance and marketing aspects. If you want to attract an elite field and have your event recognised as an event suitable for licensed riders then the compliance is to get it sanctioned and you work the ROI around that additional overhead. A properly marketed and sanctioned event should'nt have trouble making enough money to cover the overhead.The sanctioning aspect also weeds out the fly by nights offering shooters at water points simple stuff really
shaper Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 Not everything is looked at from just an ROI perspective. There is also compliance and marketing aspects. If you want to attract an elite field and have your event recognised as an event suitable for licensed riders then the compliance is to get it sanctioned and you work the ROI around that additional overhead. A properly marketed and sanctioned event should'nt have trouble making enough money to cover the overhead.The sanctioning aspect also weeds out the fly by nights offering shooters at water points simple stuff reallyYou ever organised and run an event? I believe Face Plant has/does and it is very popular, so he speaks from experience and justification.
Patchelicious Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 To those who have been affected by the CSA sanctions imposed on by CSA, I would firstly like to thank you for supporting our event, and CHOC who received 100% of the funds raised by the event.Secondly I would like to apologise to you that you are in this situation for simply enjoying a day out on your bike with us and supporting our chosen cause.I do not wish to simply jump on the bandwagon here and abuse CSA, however as the family that started the event, I would like to clarify some points.Very briefly, the event was started to remember my brother who passed away from Cancer and to donated the proceeds to the CHOC Cows.For the first 5 years that we hosted the Believe MTB we duly paid CSA their funds to sanction our event. CSA however never once attended the event and supplied the commissaries (which you are then also charged for even though you have to have one and they say they supply them???)Anyone who attended the start of year 2 in the thunderstorm, where we didn't know if we should actually proceed with the event can attest to the fact we were left without support for this crucial and many other crucial decisions.After years of complaining that we were paying for a service that we didn't receive and simply charging riders more for their entry (day licences) and handing over less to our charity, CSA did arrive for year 6.The commissaries (very nice gentleman and a lady) arrived in time for the start (definitely not 2 hours before as per their guidelines), smiled and that was about it. no route check, inspections of dangerous area etc etcI can 100% guarantee you if the CSA had done anything they would have noticed that we used to give free shooters on the water tables, some questions may have been asked and I doubt they would have sanctioned us... Definitely sure it wouldnt have been covered under their insurance policy, which i never actually saw a copy of in all those years. (we took out our own additional event and medical insurance for riders)I do agree with CSA that there is an easy loop hole for race organisers to hide behind the "we give to charity" sign and write a cheque. However if they would like pictures of my 6 year old packing race packs and learning about giving back to those less fortunate or our "free family and friends labourforce" putting up the start line and manning registration as part of our efforts for CHOC, i can gladly show them. End of the day I guess the decision came down to paying for a service you didn't receive. Guess this is a huge problem in our country in general, and we decided against doing it again.I again apologise to those riders who have had to bare the brunt of this, and only wish CSA had granted our request to have the sanction lifted. Please noteOver the past 2 years the event has been hosted for us, as we moved to Nelspruit and cannot do it ourselves. The first of these years was still sanctioned by CSA.This years event was sanctioned by the city of Johannesburg JOC, full medical facilities and race insurance was in place,and every safety precaution taken with the help of the venue. I truly hope CSA can turn themselves around and make a difference to the lives of us every day cyclists and weekend warriors. The guys and girls who I am sure make up the majoirty of the memberships they receive. Hope to see you at the Believe MTB next year Not everything is looked at from just an ROI perspective. There is also compliance and marketing aspects. If you want to attract an elite field and have your event recognised as an event suitable for licensed riders then the compliance is to get it sanctioned and you work the ROI around that additional overhead. A properly marketed and sanctioned event should'nt have trouble making enough money to cover the overhead.The sanctioning aspect also weeds out the fly by nights offering shooters at water points simple stuff really Why are you now taking a swipe at the organiser of Believe, who came here and made a very fair and balanced post?
GaryvdM Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 Not everything is looked at from just an ROI perspective. There is also compliance and marketing aspects. If you want to attract an elite field and have your event recognised as an event suitable for licensed riders then the compliance is to get it sanctioned and you work the ROI around that additional overhead. A properly marketed and sanctioned event should'nt have trouble making enough money to cover the overhead.The sanctioning aspect also weeds out the fly by nights offering shooters at water points simple stuff really You have to get sanctioned, cause if you don't, elite riders won't ride your event, not because of the quality of your event, but because they want to avoid that slap on the wrist. This is the big stick that CSA wields to get event organizers to hand over the cash, aka "sanctioning". The big stick that you failed to comprehend earlier.
Rolling Stone Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 There is no law stating that your event has to be sanctioned by a sports governing body, as long as your event complies with the regulations set out in the sports and recreation act there is no way that they can stop your event. But you are correct that CSA has threatened to do it in the past. I am not aware of any races that have actually been stopped.
Shebeen Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 With regards to a race like the CHOC, I tried to get as much background as I could. The whole CSA, Officials, registering, sanctioning etc is rather complex and gets just more complex as CSA tries to provide for and acomodate every race. * I have this theory that CSA are being complete chops about rule 1.2.019* This is based on the premise that they are the only national federation enforcing this stupid rule.* I can't find any evidence of anyone else doing it, and a google search of the past year only brings up CSA please tell me I'm wrong in this, and show me where (don't search before 2015, when the rule was suspended)
Frosty Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 Who allocates the officials to be on duty, is it the region or is it the race organizers. If those official are not CSA representatives acting on their behalf and have nothing to do with CSA how can they enforce CSA rules. The region recruits officials for the road races - the technical commission approves the distances for each category, eg. this year the U17 boys weren't allowed to race the 110Km event (CSA's technical commission made the rule, and were told to race in the open groups). Not sure about the MTB side of things - could be the technical committee or MTB Commissioner. The officials are there to ensure fair racing in each category that has a UCI (racing) licence. They enforce the rules of racing. If you, as a fun rider in the open category, have a complaint, you contact the organiser or you can also contact CyclingSA who will then request an answer from the organiser. If the complaint is valid, the organiser has to justify to CyclingSA that matter has been resolved. I'm the one that keeps harping on about the officials on duty catering only for Lic riders, Reason is I see no value they add to the large majority of riders in whatever shape be it CSA, affiliated region, sub region, race commissionaire etc. I get that the part of the entry from day lic to % of each entry is split between CSA and the regions and sub regions etc, but as a fun rider in the open group with exception of placing it on the calendar, what am i been charged a % of my entry for. What other input do they have ? I'm asking this so I can see whether taking out membership or day lic and motivating others to do the same plus this will help in my decision to enter more sanctioned races. According to SASREA (Safety At Sports and Recreational Events Act) organisers of an event with a controlling body (CycingSA) have to get sanctioning for the event. This must be submitted with the application for the SAPS Clearance Certificate, and included in the safety file. There are other documents - plenty of them - that needs to be submitted to the Distaster Management Committee of the municipality the event takes place in. THIS IS ALL IN THE NAME OF SAFETY! According to the act, an organiser can be hold liable (criminally too) for breach of the act. See the link below for requirements for Ekurhuleni, to host an event, any event... https://www.ekurhuleni.gov.za/284-pol-205/file So I will choose to support an event that has been sanctioned, as there are minimum requirements that have to be met, and seeing the officials there means the safety file would have been checked, the route inspected, and other safety critical matters. But that doesn't mean I don't need to be a member of CyclingSA - my reason is value for money. 5-7 day licences @ R35 = R175 - R245. The cost for CSA membership and regional fees is R250 + R50. The day licence still goes to the region and CSA, but only according to the number of races that I enter. The calendar fee to get an event listed is R3000 (A-grade road race) and R250 for the MTB. Divide this by the number of riders and you'll see the fee is negliable on your entry fee. Thereafter it's R10 per rider, plus the day licence fee. So you asked for a % of your entry fee (CCMNC, as I know the numbers/costs):Road - 3.36% MTB - 4.256%Day licence is R35 and charged extra on top of your entry fee, like the CSA Membership.CSA Membership (R250) + Gauteng East affiliation (R75) = R325.325 / 35 = 9.28 ----> this is the number of events you can do before breaking even. This was the first year that we (CCMNC organisers) charged the same price for all 110Km riders. In the past, the licensed categories were R20 more which covered the official's fees. However, they don't use the on-route facilities, eg. water tables, so they could ask for a discount for not using these facilities. IOfficials 'm the one that keeps harping on about the officials on duty catering only for Lic riders, Reason is I see no value they add to the large majority of riders in whatever shape be it CSA, affiliated region, sub region, race commissionaire etc. I get that the part of the entry from day lic to % of each entry is split between CSA and the regions and sub regions etc, but as a fun rider in the open group with exception of placing it on the calendar, what am i been charged a % of my entry for. What other input do they have ? I'm asking this so I can see whether taking out membership or day lic and motivating others to do the same plus this will help in my decision to enter more sanctioned races.
gogo@ Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 ...snip.. According to SASREA (Safety At Sports and Recreational Events Act) organisers of an event with a controlling body (CycingSA) have to get sanctioning for the event. This must be submitted with the application for the SAPS Clearance Certificate, and included in the safety file. There are other documents - plenty of them - that needs to be submitted to the Distaster Management Committee of the municipality the event takes place in. ...snip.. ??? There is no law stating that your event has to be sanctioned by a sports governing body, as long as your event complies with the regulations set out in the sports and recreation act there is no way that they can stop your event. But you are correct that CSA has threatened to do it in the past. I am not aware of any races that have actually been stopped. In my experience, Frosty is correct. Check the Act. See the paperwork required to get event clearance.What is the way around this, if you are not the PPA??
ChrisF Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 Interesting reading the various replies - from the view point of a "FUN RIDER" .... Look at any MTB event. By FAR the most entrants are "fun riders" !! My only "encounter" with CSA was with a "sanctioned" ride outside Worcester .... Think it was another R60 on top of the entry fee for CSA .... after the fuel and other costs of doing a day trip from Cape Town. And this was the WORST organised event ever !!!!! Route markings was non-existant !! There were not enough flag-persons to deal with the various unmarked intersections .... I was in the lead group when we got TOTALLY lost !! Ended up doing our own ride via farm roads and vineyards ..... But hey, it was "sanctioned" so all is peachy ..... PS - I DONT blame CSA for the dismal organisation !! But paying them a "fee" certainly added ZERO value !!! Frankly those events that make use of the PPA marchals to scout the route before the event and who offer up their weekends put together excellent events for us have my utmost RESPECT AND GRATITUDE !!
scotty Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 "So I will choose to support an event that has been sanctioned, as there are minimum requirements that have to be met, and seeing the officials there means the safety file would have been checked, the route inspected, and other safety critical matters" Frosty I'm not saying that there should not be controls in place but there is also nothing preventing an event organizer from doing the same for a non sanctioned event as well. If I take your race for example, GW know the roads very well as you train regularly on it plus the Metro police who also know the area need to give final approval, If they say NO its a NO finish, not sure what the officials can add regards the route here. The orgs need to get liability insurance, metro sign off, marketing, sponsors, parking, timing, set up WP etc. Other than checking this is done I cannot see what add the officials do that a simple Project Plan tick sheet cant. Your event is top notch which is why I ride it and every year and YOU (GW) try make it better, but I have done "sanctioned" events that IMO have been far from it. I did a race the weekend which was not sanctioned and it had all the controls in place (wont mention the name as there were lic riders in attendance and CSA might be reading this ), the CHOC post also mentioned the same about having the controls.
Face Plant Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 The region recruits officials for the road races - the technical commission approves the distances for each category, eg. this year the U17 boys weren't allowed to race the 110Km event (CSA's technical commission made the rule, and were told to race in the open groups). Not sure about the MTB side of things - could be the technical committee or MTB Commissioner. The officials are there to ensure fair racing in each category that has a UCI (racing) licence. They enforce the rules of racing. If you, as a fun rider in the open category, have a complaint, you contact the organiser or you can also contact CyclingSA who will then request an answer from the organiser. If the complaint is valid, the organiser has to justify to CyclingSA that matter has been resolved. According to SASREA (Safety At Sports and Recreational Events Act) organisers of an event with a controlling body (CycingSA) have to get sanctioning for the event. This must be submitted with the application for the SAPS Clearance Certificate, and included in the safety file. There are other documents - plenty of them - that needs to be submitted to the Distaster Management Committee of the municipality the event takes place in. THIS IS ALL IN THE NAME OF SAFETY! According to the act, an organiser can be hold liable (criminally too) for breach of the act. See the link below for requirements for Ekurhuleni, to host an event, any event... https://www.ekurhuleni.gov.za/284-pol-205/file So I will choose to support an event that has been sanctioned, as there are minimum requirements that have to be met, and seeing the officials there means the safety file would have been checked, the route inspected, and other safety critical matters. But that doesn't mean I don't need to be a member of CyclingSA - my reason is value for money. 5-7 day licences @ R35 = R175 - R245. The cost for CSA membership and regional fees is R250 + R50. The day licence still goes to the region and CSA, but only according to the number of races that I enter. The calendar fee to get an event listed is R3000 (A-grade road race) and R250 for the MTB. Divide this by the number of riders and you'll see the fee is negliable on your entry fee. Thereafter it's R10 per rider, plus the day licence fee. So you asked for a % of your entry fee (CCMNC, as I know the numbers/costs):Road - 3.36% MTB - 4.256%Day licence is R35 and charged extra on top of your entry fee, like the CSA Membership.CSA Membership (R250) + Gauteng East affiliation (R75) = R325.325 / 35 = 9.28 ----> this is the number of events you can do before breaking even. This was the first year that we (CCMNC organisers) charged the same price for all 110Km riders. In the past, the licensed categories were R20 more which covered the official's fees. However, they don't use the on-route facilities, eg. water tables, so they could ask for a discount for not using these facilities. The region recruits officials for the road races - the technical commission approves the distances for each category, eg. this year the U17 boys weren't allowed to race the 110Km event (CSA's technical commission made the rule, and were told to race in the open groups). Not sure about the MTB side of things - could be the technical committee or MTB Commissioner. The officials are there to ensure fair racing in each category that has a UCI (racing) licence. They enforce the rules of racing. If you, as a fun rider in the open category, have a complaint, you contact the organiser or you can also contact CyclingSA who will then request an answer from the organiser. If the complaint is valid, the organiser has to justify to CyclingSA that matter has been resolved. According to SASREA (Safety At Sports and Recreational Events Act) organisers of an event with a controlling body (CycingSA) have to get sanctioning for the event. This must be submitted with the application for the SAPS Clearance Certificate, and included in the safety file. There are other documents - plenty of them - that needs to be submitted to the Distaster Management Committee of the municipality the event takes place in. THIS IS ALL IN THE NAME OF SAFETY! According to the act, an organiser can be hold liable (criminally too) for breach of the act. See the link below for requirements for Ekurhuleni, to host an event, any event... https://www.ekurhuleni.gov.za/284-pol-205/file So I will choose to support an event that has been sanctioned, as there are minimum requirements that have to be met, and seeing the officials there means the safety file would have been checked, the route inspected, and other safety critical matters. But that doesn't mean I don't need to be a member of CyclingSA - my reason is value for money. 5-7 day licences @ R35 = R175 - R245. The cost for CSA membership and regional fees is R250 + R50. The day licence still goes to the region and CSA, but only according to the number of races that I enter. The calendar fee to get an event listed is R3000 (A-grade road race) and R250 for the MTB. Divide this by the number of riders and you'll see the fee is negliable on your entry fee. Thereafter it's R10 per rider, plus the day licence fee. So you asked for a % of your entry fee (CCMNC, as I know the numbers/costs):Road - 3.36% MTB - 4.256%Day licence is R35 and charged extra on top of your entry fee, like the CSA Membership.CSA Membership (R250) + Gauteng East affiliation (R75) = R325.325 / 35 = 9.28 ----> this is the number of events you can do before breaking even. This was the first year that we (CCMNC organisers) charged the same price for all 110Km riders. In the past, the licensed categories were R20 more which covered the official's fees. However, they don't use the on-route facilities, eg. water tables, so they could ask for a discount for not using these facilities. Frosty, it used to be the case that an event had to be sanctioned by the governing body, this has changed after the court ruling of CSA vs PPA, i assure you I am well aware of the documentation that needs to be submitted to comply with SASREA and a sanctioning letter is not one of them
ChrisF Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 ??? In my experience, Frosty is correct. Check the Act. See the paperwork required to get event clearance.What is the way around this, if you are not the PPA?? SANS 10366 deals with Health and Safety at events. Each city, or province, has its own By-laws regarding this. For the Western Cape it was Gazetted as the "Community Fire Safety By Law". It details the processes and what must be in place etc etc .... Once you understand the full process it makes even less sense why a CSA-tax must be paid .... by anybody but the hardcore racers ... You need hair on your teeth to jump through all these hoops !!! THANKS to those that put together these "fun rides" for us.ByLaw_-_Community_Fire_Safety_Amendment_By-law2.pdf
Face Plant Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 Not everything is looked at from just an ROI perspective. There is also compliance and marketing aspects. If you want to attract an elite field and have your event recognised as an event suitable for licensed riders then the compliance is to get it sanctioned and you work the ROI around that additional overhead. A properly marketed and sanctioned event should'nt have trouble making enough money to cover the overhead.The sanctioning aspect also weeds out the fly by nights offering shooters at water points simple stuff reallyI am not sure i agree with you DnD Lets separate the points you mentioned,Compliance: Compliance to what? As mentioned you are not obliged to sanction your event with CSA however there is certain compliance that has to be in place with regards to SASRIA, if your event complies with this you are allowed to host your event. Its a different matter for example if a church wants to have a quick fund raiser and hosts a bike race without complying to SASRIA requirements, the police then have full right to stop the event. Marketing: What marketing are you speaking about? the CSA event calender and the SMSes that occasionally go out? ask yourself how many people make decisions to partake in an event because of a SMS, i myself never check the CSA calender, i check the well known online entry portals to see what events are coming up. I would love to hear the basis of your statement that a properly marketed and sanctioned event shouldn't have trouble making enough money. I can mention a number of well marketed events sanctioned by CSA that have struggled to break even let alone make a profit. I do however agree with you that in principle sanctioning an event should weed out the fly by night organizers.but then CSA should start protecting and supporting the event organizers that have been around for many years! so to quote you "simple stuff really" not really that simple after all!
Frosty Posted November 8, 2018 Posted November 8, 2018 "So I will choose to support an event that has been sanctioned, as there are minimum requirements that have to be met, and seeing the officials there means the safety file would have been checked, the route inspected, and other safety critical matters" Frosty I'm not saying that there should not be controls in place but there is also nothing preventing an event organizer from doing the same for a non sanctioned event as well. If I take your race for example, GW know the roads very well as you train regularly on it plus the Metro police who also know the area need to give final approval, If they say NO its a NO finish, not sure what the officials can add regards the route here. The orgs need to get liability insurance, metro sign off, marketing, sponsors, parking, timing, set up WP etc. Other than checking this is done I cannot see what add the officials do that a simple Project Plan tick sheet cant. Your event is top notch which is why I ride it and every year and YOU (GW) try make it better, but I have done "sanctioned" events that IMO have been far from it. I did a race the weekend which was not sanctioned and it had all the controls in place (wont mention the name as there were lic riders in attendance and CSA might be reading this ), the CHOC post also mentioned the same about having the controls. I agree, some races get sanctioned and don't have some/many of the boxes ticked. There in lies a problem - CSA signs off without seeing the documents, and the Metro also sign off... but the liability rests with the organiser.
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