The Veganism Thread

[Gen]

So is a bees life no less worthy than a cow?

 

Guess one can be militant but if one becomes a vegan which already is an extreme then one should do so completely an not half way. Can’t have a clear conscience with the pain and suffering an death of bees. May as well eat meat then surely. ( assuming ones reason is animal related )

 

I am playing devils advocare here an admit that, just want to understand the rationale that it’s ok to hurt some animals but not others.

Yeah. I am not sure where the goalposts are..think with bees it is a matter of ethically sourced.. but here is the thing.. would any products really be ethically sourced.... it isn't as if someone is going around looking for avo trees that are naturally found.. no they are harvesting from farms..that means at some point ground was cleared to plant the avo trees effecting the natural habitat of the animals who were found there..take for instance what is happening in Mexico with the deforestation to make way for more Avo trees.. that is leading to water issues for animals lower down the river...and apparently a certain type of butterfly who's numbers are reducing rapidly because of it... and one could assume that this would be the case worldwide as the demand is higher than ever before..it would just be effecting different species.

 

Perhaps they just need to start being really honest with themselves and say.. it is actually about livestock and fish.

 

 

How can they with clear conscious go protest the meat eaters while enjoying those avo-bun burgers while sipping almond milk?

Edited December 1, 2018 by Gen

[Eldron]

Yeah. I am not sure where the goalposts are..think with bees it is a matter of ethically sourced.. but here is the thing.. would any products really be ethically sourced.... it isn't as if someone is going around looking for avo trees that are naturally found.. no they are harvesting from farms..that means at some point ground was cleared to plant the avo trees effecting the natural habitat of the animals who were found there..take for instance what is happening in Mexico with the deforestation to make way for more Avo trees.. that is leading to water issues for animals lower down the river...and apparently a certain type of butterfly who's numbers are reducing rapidly because of it... and one could assume that this would be the case worldwide as the demand is higher than ever before..it would just be effecting different species.

 

Perhaps they just need to start being really honest with themselves and say.. it is actually about livestock and fish.

 

 

How can they with clear conscious go protest the meat eaters while enjoying those avo-bun burgers while sipping almond milk?

 

I gotta say I don't understand the "absolutism" argument that is used against vegans.

 

Something along the lines of what Odi was saying earlier about being able to dismiss the entire vegan movement if you manage to prove that they've hurt one ant.

 

The truth is that nobody can live without directly or indirectly hurting insects/animals - "the system" that man has developed is consuming the planet.

 

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try though - veganism (or any reduction in your meat consumption) is one way. 

 

Surely it's better to stick around on this thread and see if there are any ideas you'd like to adopt rather than play "catch out the vegan". 

 

Avos and almonds are the perfect example - neither product was made for or happened because of vegans - they're farmed in a ethically questionable ways to feed anyone who will pay top dollar for a smashed sandwich and almond milk latte.

 

Doing a little research into where you food comes from is a great idea - it'll help preserve the planet which, if you have children, helps you even if you don't subscribe to it.

[Escapee..]

I gotta say I don't understand the "absolutism" argument that is used against vegans.

 

Something along the lines of what Odi was saying earlier about being able to dismiss the entire vegan movement if you manage to prove that they've hurt one ant.

 

The truth is that nobody can live without directly or indirectly hurting insects/animals - "the system" that man has developed is consuming the planet.

 

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try though - veganism (or any reduction in your meat consumption) is one way.

 

Surely it's better to stick around on this thread and see if there are any ideas you'd like to adopt rather than play "catch out the vegan".

 

Avos and almonds are the perfect example - neither product was made for or happened because of vegans - they're farmed in a ethically questionable ways to feed anyone who will pay top dollar for a smashed sandwich and almond milk latte.

 

Doing a little research into where you food comes from is a great idea - it'll help preserve the planet which, if you have children, helps you even if you don't subscribe to it.

+1000

 

It has definitely made me think about it. Maybe only on a personal health level but if that also helps to save the planet in a very small way,its a win win imho

[Gen]

I gotta say I don't understand the "absolutism" argument that is used against vegans.

 

Something along the lines of what Odi was saying earlier about being able to dismiss the entire vegan movement if you manage to prove that they've hurt one ant.

 

The truth is that nobody can live without directly or indirectly hurting insects/animals - "the system" that man has developed is consuming the planet.

 

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try though - veganism (or any reduction in your meat consumption) is one way.

 

Surely it's better to stick around on this thread and see if there are any ideas you'd like to adopt rather than play "catch out the vegan".

 

Avos and almonds are the perfect example - neither product was made for or happened because of vegans - they're farmed in a ethically questionable ways to feed anyone who will pay top dollar for a smashed sandwich and almond milk latte.

 

Doing a little research into where you food comes from is a great idea - it'll help preserve the planet which, if you have children, helps you even if you don't subscribe to it.

It really isn't about catching them out.. it is about trying to understand and educate myself.

 

If it wasnt for the whole avo and almond thing I wouldn't have read up about avo and almond and the increase in demand and the effect is having..but not just limited to those either.

 

Again.. cull the human population.

 

Thanos is on to something

Edited December 1, 2018 by Gen

[Fruity]

It really isn't about catching them out.. it is about trying to understand and educate myself.

 

If it wasnt for the whole avo and almond thing I wouldn't have read up about avo and almond and the increase in demand and the effect is having..but not just limited to those either.

 

Again.. cull the human population.

 

Thanos is on to something

And if you were included in the culling?

[Gen]

And if you were included in the culling?

One less person to sustain

[Kranswurm]

One less person to sustain

We keep trying to prune the population but you keep on inventing cures,preventing starvation ,solving conflicts and genocides....its a loosing battle

[Eldron]

It really isn't about catching them out.. it is about trying to understand and educate myself.

 

If it wasnt for the whole avo and almond thing I wouldn't have read up about avo and almond and the increase in demand and the effect is having..but not just limited to those either.

 

Again.. cull the human population.

 

Thanos is on to something

Yup. Too many humans is the base of pretty much all our problems.

 

All this veganism, plastic, recycling, reduce, save etc is all an attempt to make up for too many people...

[Eldron]

On Zwift this morning (it's 2 degrees and raining outside) I was contemplating hypocrisy - based on Gen's vegan avo eating question.

 

I'm pretty sure if we dig deep enough we can make anyone a hypocrite.

 

Gen claims there are too many people in the world but happily added to that number in the form of children (at least I think she has children).

Odi claims to love animals but types on a computer made of old dinosaur corpses.

Eldron claims to be pro veganism but happily eats animals corpses.

Patch claims to want to help save the planet but the best he can do is own a virtual vegan chicken.

[IceCreamMan]

I gotta say I don't understand the "absolutism" argument that is used against vegans.

 

Something along the lines of what Odi was saying earlier about being able to dismiss the entire vegan movement if you manage to prove that they've hurt one ant.

 

The truth is that nobody can live without directly or indirectly hurting insects/animals - "the system" that man has developed is consuming the planet.

 

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try though - veganism (or any reduction in your meat consumption) is one way. 

 

Surely it's better to stick around on this thread and see if there are any ideas you'd like to adopt rather than play "catch out the vegan". 

 

Avos and almonds are the perfect example - neither product was made for or happened because of vegans - they're farmed in a ethically questionable ways to feed anyone who will pay top dollar for a smashed sandwich and almond milk latte.

 

Doing a little research into where you food comes from is a great idea - it'll help preserve the planet which, if you have children, helps you even if you don't subscribe to it.

 

Seems rather flippant to dismiss an entire class of animals but I take your point.

 

These very insects is what allows life to continue as all food in some way or other is thanks to insects irrespective of where on the food chain you find yourself.

 

Point is , if one is a vegan due to way animals are treated then one must be vigilant to adhere to this philosophy...of one is vegan due to potential health benefits then that's a different kettle.

[Gen]

 

 

Patch claims to want to help save the planet but the best he can do is own a virtual vegan chicken.

Her name is Pekkles. Lol

[Eldron]

Seems rather flippant to dismiss an entire class of animals but I take your point.

 

These very insects is what allows life to continue as all food in some way or other is thanks to insects irrespective of where on the food chain you find yourself.

 

Point is , if one is a vegan due to way animals are treated then one must be vigilant to adhere to this philosophy...of one is vegan due to potential health benefits then that's a different kettle.

 

Who exactly dismissed an entire class of animal?

 

Odi said he didn't really eat avos so that gets him off the hook - you also get responsibly sourced avos so you CAN actually eat avos as a vegan and not break your absolutism rule.

 

Not eating animals is absolute - to eat an animal it has to be killed, chopped into bits and put on your plate - the proof is right in front of you. Not eating the animal means an animal didn't have to die. Pretty straight forward.

 

Insects are a different story - it is far less clear how insects are affected by monoculture, some farms are insect friendly - some are not, some farms are organic and some use pesticides/fertilizers and used to be pristine amazon rain forest. Deciding which brands to eat and if we should eat avos at all is far less clear.

[GrahamS2]

I'm not disputing that. There's plenty of *** jobs out there, done by the people that have no other option.

 

However, it's difficult for me to avoid technology, in protest against the working conditions of some miners of rare minerals. It's much easier to not support animal agriculture and at least make some little effort in that regard.

 

Imagine your clothes were labelled "certified sweat shop". Would you still buy it in good conscience? Especially if you had readily available alternatives.

 

Capitalism has made a very imperfect system, where we collectively exploit humans and non-humans alike. To me, it's all about deciding what you want to support, as far as reasonable and practicable.

Sure, but some of the farms where the vegetables you eat are grown may very well have similar poor working conditions and unhappy workers. Same applies to wine farms and most industries in fact. It's almost unavoidable. But using it as an argument purely against meat consumption is flawed.

[Eldron]

Sure, but some of the farms where the vegetables you eat are grown may very well have similar poor working conditions and unhappy workers. Same applies to wine farms and most industries in fact. It's almost unavoidable. But using it as an argument purely against meat consumption is flawed.

 

Agreed...but!...... Given the option of two jobs with identical pay, working conditions etc I'd prefer the job where I didn't have to bolt cows to death.

 

There is a human/psych/emotional issue attached to jobs where you have to kill animals that doesn't exist in non animal killing jobs.

 

Not sure I have the bottle to kill animals 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Do you?

[Gen]

Agreed...but!...... Given the option of two jobs with identical pay, working conditions etc I'd prefer the job where I didn't have to bolt cows to death.

 

There is a human/psych/emotional issue attached to jobs where you have to kill animals that doesn't exist in non animal killing jobs.

 

Not sure I have the bottle to kill animals 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Do you?

No ways in hell..

 

But we have choices.. a lot of people don't and they have to take jobs where ever they can.

 

"As jy nie werk nie kan jy nie eet nie"

[mecheng89]

Aren't all vegans fruitcakes?

Aren't all fruitscakes vegan?