The Veganism Thread

[Odinson]

Ethics is relative. I don't think it's unethical to eat meat.

I have been to the abbatoirs where my meat come from, and I see no issue with it. Even the feed lots isn't as depressing as portrayed.

I'm the guy who helps corralling cows into the dairy when I visit my friends on the farm.

 

I don't feel I need to spare animals their life. Maybe because they are a commodity to me.

 

Some people may see peckles and moomoo the same as their dogs, but I don't. I respect their viewpoint, but I don't have to share it.

Maybe it's because I come from farmer stock myself and hunt, or maybe I'm just an integral part of the meat matrix and choose the status quo pill.

 

Besides, the one sheep and quarter cow that my family goes through every year (I know, as we get our meat in bulk and have three refrigerators for all of it) is a drop in the ocean. I'll rather offset the environmental impact by getting our house off grid.

 

I'm curious - so your family don't consume dairy, eat animal products at restaurants, take out joints, etc? The flesh of the animals that you hunt, what do you do with that?

 

Tell me, what are the characteristics of these "commodity" animals that distinguish them from the rest? 

[PhilipV]

I'm curious - so your family don't consume dairy, eat animal products at restaurants, take out joints, etc? The flesh of the animals that you hunt, what do you do with that?

 

Tell me, what are the characteristics of these "commodity" animals that distinguish them from the rest?

We don't eat out that much. So that is negligible. Twice in three months, once a month at most.

Wait, we drink a lot of milk at home between me and the kids. Add that to my sheep and hald a cow. And 47 chickens, probably a whole pig and 3 fishes.

I slaughter and eat the hunted animals. I don't shoot for sports, don't hunt giraffes and don't hunt on farms where you sit and wait for a herd to be chased by you.

 

Commodity animals are bred and raised with the sole purpose of multiplying and being consumed. Because I look at it as an investment, I remove the emotional attachment.

Tbh, I think the main difference between myself and someone like you, is that you place an emotional value to an animal that I strip the emotional aspect from.

[PhilipV]

Double post .

Edited February 22, 2019 by PhilipV

[Odinson]

We don't eat out that much. So that is negligible. Twice in three months, once a month at most.

Wait, we drink a lot of milk at home between me and the kids. Add that to my sheep and hald a cow. And 47 chickens, probably a whole pig and 3 fishes.

I slaughter and eat the hunted animals. I don't shoot for sports, don't hunt giraffes and don't hunt on farms where you sit and wait for a herd to be chased by you.

 

Commodity animals are bred and raised with the sole purpose of multiplying and being consumed. Because I look at it as an investment, I remove the emotional attachment.

Tbh, I think the main difference between myself and someone like you, is that you place an emotional value to an animal that I strip the emotional aspect from.

So we can agree that you were disingenuous with your initial claim regarding your animal consumption?

 

It’s still not clear to me why you place certain restrictions on certain animals and others not. Why do you spare dogs and cats the bullet and the plate, but not pigs and sheep?

 

“Investment” in?

[PhilipV]

So we can agree that you were disingenuous with your initial claim regarding your animal consumption?

 

It’s still not clear to me why you place certain restrictions on certain animals and others not. Why do you spare dogs and cats the bullet and the plate, but not pigs and sheep?

 

“Investment” in?

It's simple. I spare dogs and cats the plate, as they were not bred and farmed for eating. Pet's purpose is to be a pet. Livestock's purpose is to produce milk/wool/be slaughtered etc.

 

The investment part is obvious. Livestock farming costs money. Not necessarily mine, but it's still an investment.

Edited February 22, 2019 by PhilipV

[PhilipV]

So we can agree that you were disingenuous with your initial claim regarding your animal consumption?

 

?

Not really. I used hyperbole the second time. We really only buy sheep and cow meat twice a year. We buy chicken and pork once a month when I get to my favourite butcheries. Milk we buy daily. Obviously.

I can try to quantify how many chicken and pork meat we consume, but because we don't buy it as carcasses it's pointless. It's still less than you think.

[Chris_]

It's simple. I spare dogs and cats the plate, as they were not bred and farmed for eating. Pet's purpose is to be a pet. Livestock's purpose is to produce milk/wool/be slaughtered etc.

 

The investment part is obvious. Livestock farming costs money. Not necessarily mine, but it's still an investment.

 

I get what you're saying. I think you've written it all up fairly coherently the past few days.

 

I understand (from my experience - work mainly) its easy to disengage feelings from simple business 'commodities'. Business is money and have to have it, this is the world we've created.

 

We're all on different paths, perhaps you'll have a change of heart one day like that english(?) cattle man video we saw the other day, perhaps you won't. 

[GrahamS2]

Who of the Jozi crew will play guinea pig? 

 

HOW THIS JOHANNESBURG EATERY IS MAKING VEGAN SALMON OUT OF PAPAYA

 

 

http://www.oseconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Why-blue-2.png

[Goodbadugly]

Not really. I used hyperbole the second time. We really only buy sheep and cow meat twice a year. We buy chicken and pork once a month when I get to my favourite butcheries. Milk we buy daily. Obviously.

I can try to quantify how many chicken and pork meat we consume, but because we don't buy it as carcasses it's pointless. It's still less than you think.

''You don't argue with a fanatic because they typically do it all day and have hardened answers to all your arguments practiced over countless debates.

It's not like their arguments are correct but it takes time to debunk and unless you are an expert in the field they can start to sound believable.

There are tons of debates on twitter between actual historians and psuedo-historians who sound like they know what they are talking about but are just trying to forward an agenda. Even for them it takes a lot of work to debunk the bs." -Mark Scalabrin

Edited February 22, 2019 by Goodbadugly

[PhilipV]

''You don't argue with a fanatic because they typically do it all day and have hardened answers to all your arguments practiced over countless debates.

It's not like their arguments are correct but it takes time to debunk and unless you are an expert in the field they can start to sound believable.

There are tons of debates on twitter between actual historians and psuedo-historians who sound like they know what they are talking about but are just trying to forward an agenda. Even for them it takes a lot of work to debunk the bs." -Mark Scalabrin

I reckon we're still on the right line between arguing and debate.

Odi and I might not see eye to eye on this, but I'd like to think that we can sit down and have a beer while chatting about stuff like this without being militant.

If I didn't want to be engaged with, then u should not be posting my opposing viewpoint on the veganism thread. I do however this kind we can all add value to our lives by trying to understand others, and allow them to understand you by asking the questions they have.

[Escapee..]

I reckon we're still on the right line between arguing and debate.

Odi and I might not see eye to eye on this, but I'd like to think that we can sit down and have a beer while chatting about stuff like this without being militant.

If I didn't want to be engaged with, then u should not be posting my opposing viewpoint on the veganism thread. I do however this kind we can all add value to our lives by trying to understand others, and allow them to understand you by asking the questions they have.

 

Great post 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I reckon we're still on the right line between arguing and debate.

Odi and I might not see eye to eye on this, but I'd like to think that we can sit down and have a beer while chatting about stuff like this without being militant.

If I didn't want to be engaged with, then u should not be posting my opposing viewpoint on the veganism thread. I do however this kind we can all add value to our lives by trying to understand others, and allow them to understand you by asking the questions they have.

[Odinson]

It's simple. I spare dogs and cats the plate, as they were not bred and farmed for eating. Pet's purpose is to be a pet. Livestock's purpose is to produce milk/wool/be slaughtered etc.

 

The investment part is obvious. Livestock farming costs money. Not necessarily mine, but it's still an investment.

 

I understand your line of reasoning. 

 

What I'd like to understand from you is whether you've considered what traits/characteristics the "commodity" animals have or don't have, which gives you the ethical piece of mind to consume them.

 

Do you think that pigs, cows, chickens, etc. lack the sentience, intelligence, or awareness that, say, cats, dogs or horses have? Do you think our choice to consume these very specific few types of animals arbitrary? 

[forkie]

I understand your line of reasoning. 

 

What I'd like to understand from you is whether you've considered what traits/characteristics the "commodity" animals have or don't have, which gives you the ethical piece of mind to consume them.

 

Do you think that pigs, cows, chickens, etc. lack the sentience, intelligence, or awareness that, say, cats, dogs or horses have? Do you think our choice to consume these very specific few types of animals arbitrary? 

flavour

[Odinson]

I reckon we're still on the right line between arguing and debate.

Odi and I might not see eye to eye on this, but I'd like to think that we can sit down and have a beer while chatting about stuff like this without being militant.

If I didn't want to be engaged with, then u should not be posting my opposing viewpoint on the veganism thread. I do however this kind we can all add value to our lives by trying to understand others, and allow them to understand you by asking the questions they have.

 

Exactly. 

 

It's not about trying to bash each other with opinions, it's about engaging on this topic from different viewpoints. 

 

As humans, we're creatures of habit and comfort. We need to have the courage to step out of our comfort zone, challenge our beliefs and biases and challenge those of others.

[Uni]

cause it tastes nice.

  

Who of the Jozi crew will play guinea pig?

As promised, though I opted for their 'viking' bread, a dark seeded bread, lightly toasted. The sweet of the papaya well balanced against rocket and capers. I was quite surprised how busy the place was, and its setting next to a comic shop where it's mostly geeks and families with kids.

 

And then my sister In Hong kong sent this... granted she's in expat part of HK but it's nice to see considering 25 years ago, you vegetarian? Eat rice ans soya sauce.