The Veganism Thread

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Imagine that.. a lab steak.. I am not ready for that

I am, if the taste and texture is comparable. 

 

Burgers are already there in terms of taste & texture, but it's $$$

 

A good veggie (not meat alternative) burger is excellent, though. Sometimes I honestly prefer them to the meat ones as they're more carefully constructed and less likely to be stuffed up in the cooking process. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Cptmayhem

[Pieter1]

 

Imagine that.. a lab steak.. I am not ready for that

Me neither.

[Odinson]

But that contradicts your motivation that animal proteins are bad for your health?

 

They are. Didn't say they weren't. 

 

However, they do present certain benefits. Lower risk of viral contamination, no antibiotics, meat can be 'designed' with fewer fat cells, cruelty free etc. Will still be less health promoting than plant-based eating. 

 

Read Paul Shapiro's book 'Clean Meat: How Growing Meat Without Animals Will Revolutionize Dinner and the World'. Also, listen to Rich Roll's podcast with Bruce Friederich from the Good Food Institute: https://www.richroll.com/podcast/bruce-friedrich-402/

[Grease_Monkey]

Its seems there are 3 different discussions here for pro plant based diets.

 

1: Personal Health

2: Carbon footprint reduction.

3. Animals lives

 

The spread of your personal motivation over those 3 is what seems to frame our personal arguments.

 

So if I am mostly motivated to simply reduce my carbon foot print, there are other ways, which we have discussed that can really help. But that wont appease the mostly animal rights motivated people. and on the health thing, there are other meat inclusive diets that has some good science behind that might improve our longevity over our current diets.

 

The reason why I am pointing this out, is that we need to be honest about our motivations, if we are not we will likely always talk past each other.

 

If you are mostly motivated by the right of animals to live, like that chap in Odi's video who said that fact that hippos have canines proves we humans dont need meat, one has to be aware that he will likely not accept the myriad of carbon reducing actions one can take as good enough, while you are still eating meat 1 day a week. Just as an example of motive misalignment, doesn't make them wrong, just not aligned.

It's a very good point you are making, completely agree with you. The reason I am following this thread is for health reasons - I want to include some vegan and vegetarian aspects into my meals for a more well rounded and healthy diet, but by no means do I want to cut out animal products and meat because I believe it should form a part of a balanced diet (not dictating anyone else's diet here - just my own). Plus - I like meat, plain and simple.

 

The animal cruelty thing - yes I think a huge number of animals bred for us to eat are treated cruely because of the massive demand for meat - that's not okay. So I think everyone can cut back on consumption a bit (let's face it - most South Africans eat too much meat and that's flipen unhealthy). We can also do a bit more to buy from sources that treat animals better. I don't claim to have the solution, but something can be done about animal cruelty without cutting it out of our diets. This is of course only viable if you are okay with animals dying for us to eat - I am okay with that. I don't see it as murder because meat simply forms part of a human's diet. If one wants to play the whole killing is cruel card here I will just point to a lion taking down and suffocating a buck for dinner.

 

As for the carbon footprint thing, there is alot of merit to that, but as many have pointed out the whole world going vegan will also have downsides. That's why I am cool with vegans and even respect their choice, as long as they don't shove an ideology down my throat (in this context I am referring to vegans protesting inside a steak house and forcing their beliefs on others, calling meat eaters murderers etc.). There are also many other ways of reducing carbon footprint, something I actively try to do...

 

So yeah, I dunno what my point is - make your own choices and don't force your beliefs on anyone else I guess.

[Patchelicious]

It's a very good point you are making, completely agree with you. The reason I am following this thread is for health reasons - I want to include some vegan and vegetarian aspects into my meals for a more well rounded and healthy diet, but by no means do I want to cut out animal products and meat because I believe it should form a part of a balanced diet (not dictating anyone else's diet here - just my own). Plus - I like meat, plain and simple.

 

The animal cruelty thing - yes I think a huge number of animals bred for us to eat are treated cruely because of the massive demand for meat - that's not okay. So I think everyone can cut back on consumption a bit (let's face it - most South Africans eat too much meat and that's flipen unhealthy). We can also do a bit more to buy from sources that treat animals better. I don't claim to have the solution, but something can be done about animal cruelty without cutting it out of our diets. This is of course only viable if you are okay with animals dying for us to eat - I am okay with that. I don't see it as murder because meat simply forms part of a human's diet. If one wants to play the whole killing is cruel card here I will just point to a lion taking down and suffocating a buck for dinner.

 

As for the carbon footprint thing, there is alot of merit to that, but as many have pointed out the whole world going vegan will also have downsides. That's why I am cool with vegans and even respect their choice, as long as they don't shove an ideology down my throat (in this context I am referring to vegans protesting inside a steak house and forcing their beliefs on others, calling meat eaters murderers etc.). There are also many other ways of reducing carbon footprint, something I actively try to do...

 

So yeah, I dunno what my point is - make your own choices and don't force your beliefs on anyone else I guess.

Yeah careful of that one, the Hippo has canines guy has arguments against that too.

 

I would rather go for the, humans have been eating meat as part of their diet for as long as we know, only once society developed and animal ethics came about was there motivation to change. 

[Eldron]

I don't see it as murder because meat simply forms part of a human's diet. If one wants to play the whole killing is cruel card here I will just point to a lion taking down and suffocating a buck for dinner.

It is a valid card in that lions are forced to eat meat - humans have alternatives.

 

Either way the whole argument is a bit silly. Being vegan is like being  religious, mixed race couples etc - if you don't want to be any of those things don't. You have the choice.

 

You also have the responsibility to not condemn anyone who chooses a lifestyle different to yours (same applies to them).

Edited November 29, 2018 by Eldron

[Grease_Monkey]

It is a valid card in that lions are forced to eat meat - humans have alternatives.

 

Either way the whole argument is a bit silly. Being vegan is like being gay, religious, mixed race couples etc - if you don't want to be any of those things don't. You have the choice.

 

You also have the responsibility to not condemn anyone who chooses a lifestyle different to yours (same applies to them).

Yeah I guess that's the point I am trying to make, make your choice, I will make mine.

 

And I guess the my whole frame of reference with regards to why I am okay with killing animals, why I don't believe animal life is equal to human life is based on my belief system - which if someone else does not buy into in the first place will never buy my argument as being valid because that which I am basing it on is not valid (for them).

 

I guess it is like most things in life - your frame of reference and base of "facts" dictate how you view something.

 

Eg: I found a statement by Odinson interesting - he does not see animal products as a food group at all, I do. So we can in theory both argue a diet that cuts out any one food group is unhealthy - but in the end the outcomes of our argument is vastly different.

[Odinson]

I agree that we should not unfairly judge others. Every one is on their own path. This doesn't mean that we should reserve all judgment. 

 

To those who say that they have no qualms with eating animals, a question. What traits, in your opinion, do or do animals not have, that gives us the moral justification to kill them? 

[Patchelicious]

I agree that we should not unfairly judge others. Every one is on their own path. This doesn't mean that we should reserve all judgment. 

 

To those who say that they have no qualms with eating animals, a question. What traits, in your opinion, do or do animals not have, that gives us the moral justification to kill them? 

 

Seeing that they are living, could we not extend that question to plants too?

Edited November 29, 2018 by Patchelicious

[Odinson]

Seeing that they are living, could we not extend that question to plants too?

 

You can, but let's keep the deflection to a minimum. 

 

Plants are not sentient and have no capacity to have subjective experiences. I can quote the The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness again if you want. 

[Patchelicious]

You can, but let's keep the deflection to a minimum. 

 

Plants are not sentient and have no capacity to have subjective experiences. I can quote the The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness again if you want. 

 

So you can ask a question, but if I do its deflection?

 

I have told you before that I agree with many arguments for plant based diets, but that its often the way people go about that turns me off to their ideas. This is an example.

[Cav']

I am, if the taste and texture is comparable. 

 

Burgers are already there in terms of taste & texture, but it's $$$

 

A good veggie (not meat alternative) burger is excellent, though. Sometimes I honestly prefer them to the meat ones as they're more carefully constructed and less likely to be stuffed up in the cooking process. 

How long before you go Vegan? Or would you die without your Tinkie's?

[Grease_Monkey]

I agree that we should not unfairly judge others. Every one is on their own path. This doesn't mean that we should reserve all judgment.

 

To those who say that they have no qualms with eating animals, a question. What traits, in your opinion, do or do animals not have, that gives us the moral justification to kill them?

Sho, very difficult to answer that without sounding like an ass.

 

The lion that hunts a buck does not see traits, he sees dinner. Now I am not saying we are lions, and I am not saying this to be difficult/obtuse/a dick - but an cow to me is dinner - simple as that. In nature there is the top of the food chain and the bottom, we as humans are the top and that allows us (not morally - but just an ability) to eat animals without being stopped.

 

It also comes with a responsibility to do so responsibly (ie: environmental impact, cruelty, etc.). So I am not saying the above with a red neck attitude of "kill and shoot everything in sight". But the essence of it is that people/animals have eaten other animals for as long as we have existed. I believe that's the way we were made and the way it was intended to be from day one.

 

Once again, a lion does not torture his prey, and I do not believe we have any right to torture animals. So along with all of this, I think alot can be done to change the status quo of the meat industry.

 

EDIT: alot of it also has to do with the fact that I simply do not believe any animal life is in any way equal to a human life (but I won't get into that because that's a religious debate). So before anyone asks - that's why it's not okay for humans to be culled/killed (IMO).

Edited November 29, 2018 by Grease_Monkey

[Odinson]

Sho, very difficult to answer that without sounding like an ass.

 

The lion that hunts a buck does not see traits, he sees dinner. Now I am not saying we are lions, and I am not saying this to be difficult/obtuse/a dick - but an cow to me is dinner - simple as that. In nature there is the top of the food chain and the bottom, we as humans are the top and that allows us (not morally - but just an ability) to eat animals without being stopped.

 

It also comes with a responsibility to do so responsibly (ie: environmental impact, cruelty, etc.). So I am not saying the above with a red neck attitude of "kill and shoot everything in sight". But the essence of it is that people/animals have eaten other animals for as long as we have existed. I believe that's the way we were made and the way it was intended to be from day one.

 

Once again, a lion does not torture his prey, and I do not believe we have any right to torture animals. So along with all of this, I think alot can be done to change the status quo of the meat industry.

 

You're right when you say that we are effectively at the top of the food chain. Our development of tools (technology) has allowed us to dominate all other species. 

 

However, the question is whether 'might is right'? Does your ability to do something make it morally justifiable to do so? Just because I can take a gun and shoot a defenseless animal, does it make it morally justifiable? Is a hijacker morally justified to steal your car, just because he can? 

[Odinson]

I'm going to sign off for a bit. Spending wayyy to much time here. I'll pick up on responses tomorrow (I think). 

[Grease_Monkey]

You're right when you say that we are effectively at the top of the food chain. Our development of tools (technology) has allowed us to dominate all other species.

 

However, the question is whether 'might is right'? Does your ability to do something make it morally justifiable to do so? Just because I can take a gun and shoot a defenseless animal, does it make it morally justifiable? Is a hijacker morally justified to steal your car, just because he can?

Morals is where it gets fuzzy. I base mine on something you probably don't agree with. What I see as absolute truth you probably see as a dusty old and outdated book - so I don't think us debating the morality of killing animals for food will achieve anything.

 

This will have to be one of those agree to disagree things...