Hairy Posted February 17, 2020 Share Will go through youtube tonight ... it was either GMBN or Pinkbike that featured a rider who worked on a system to attach his arm to the bars and then also using a QR for those unplanned falls. .... my gut is telling me it was a Pinkbike feature. All was available as a downloadable 3D printing file. Edited February 17, 2020 by Hairy DJR and Slowbee 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewbacca Posted February 17, 2020 Share Also, I was lucky guide/lead out the British Armed forces 'Tour of the UK' adaptive bike tour in 2012. It is all the Vets who have lost limbs/eyes/mobility etc whilst enlisted in the British armed forces riding around England on arm bikes and other adapted rigs. It might be a good thing to look at or even contact groups like that and see what they suggest or have on offer. I seem to remember a few of the 'attached to handlebar' solutions some of the guys have mentioned. Edited February 17, 2020 by Jewbacca Hairy and Kalahari Vegmot 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalahari Vegmot Posted February 17, 2020 Share RESPECT !!I read stories like this and Cois and wonder to myself if I'd have the motivation and positivety that guys like you have. One day if you ever feel up to it I'd love to hear the full story, purely for my own morbid curiosity. And if you never feel like telling it I can understand, so please dont feel obligated.Drop me a PM. Thanks for all the helpful and kind comments also, it's appreciated. I'll talk to Droo as well thanks Hairy. I think in the future this is what I might be looking at for MTB/motorbike. Not sure if I'm comfortable doing MTB with a locked elbow mechanism... Don't know. Maybe I'll figure something out... Tatt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJR Posted February 17, 2020 Share A Fox elbow - that is pretty cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaGearA Posted February 17, 2020 Share Hats off sir, reading stuff like this just makes me realize how small my everyday problems are. Hope you get A bionic elbow one day ChrisF, DJR and Kalahari Vegmot 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowbee Posted February 17, 2020 Share Drop me a PM. Thanks for all the helpful and kind comments also, it's appreciated. I'll talk to Droo as well thanks Hairy. I think in the future this is what I might be looking at for MTB/motorbike. Not sure if I'm comfortable doing MTB with a locked elbow mechanism... Don't know. Maybe I'll figure something out... No man Kalahari ! We all want to know. Common share with us all, but it is ok if you do not want to. We will all also understand. BSG 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FootballingCyclist Posted February 17, 2020 Share Contact "Reyaan Traut" on FB, He is an amputee and races WP Winter league in Cat 3 and rides on track now aswell, Also does crossfit and if you see his videos on Instagram it really is motivating to see what he can do with 1 arm. He has a new bike with Di2 shifters aswell as a TT type shifter button at bar end on his right side drops which controls the front derailleur! He is a really humble guy and I'm sure will be more than willing to help you with any advice. https://instagram.com/reyaantraut?igshid=ctv0oyxlo46e https://www.facebook.com/reyaan.traut.75 Edited February 17, 2020 by FootballingCyclist Kalahari Vegmot, Hairy, splat and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalahari Vegmot Posted February 17, 2020 Share No man Kalahari ! We all want to know. Common share with us all, but it is ok if you do not want to. We will all also understand.Yea sure. Hope you like reading! If anyone's got any specific questions about whatever, just send me a PM. So in Feb last year, I finished my GED. This meant it was too late to apply for any sort of studies that I thought I might be interested in or whatever(didn't have a clue really anyway...). But I was still a year ahead basically so what the hell. Decided to go farm in the US as a gap year/fundraiser towards studies. Arrived in May and so the 14-hour farm days began... It was good fun too don't get me wrong. We were a week into harvest, which meant 15/16h days, as well as a general rush on everything being done(just an upped tempo). My job was running an airsep, which separates potatoes from rocks, vines and dirt clumps. It was on a trans-load site next to a field. The potatoes would come directly out the field, through the airsep and onto semis to the french-fry-plant. The airsep broke down, so we had to send the trucks coming from the field to our second line at the warehouses. We got her fixed, so I decided to fire the transload line up and just go through everything to make sure it works 100%. I went through the line and the last thing left is the cleaning table on the airsep. That's when I noticed a rock right in the corner of the cleaning table chafing away at the side panel. The rock was about fist-sized so it looked 'safe' enough to grab it without putting my fingers around the rock. In the heat of the moment I grabbed the rock, and.......My hand and arm got pulled in between one of the steel and rubber rollers as shown in the pictures. Not sure if it was my sleeve or fingers that got caught, but anyway... I cried out to my Lord, and in that moment He gave me the clarity to grab my phone - which was on a clip on my belt - and call for help. The machine ran for about 7 minutes thereafter and then then the help arrived and shut the machine off. We(the help...) called 911 and about 20min later the ambulance arrived. It then took them about 1.5 more hours to get me out, which they finally managed with a torch, after the Jaws, prybars and airbags had failed. I was then rushed to the nearest bigger hospital which was in Bismarck, about 50min away... At first everything looked pretty good apart from the relatively small patch on my upper-arm that was eaten away by the rollers. Day after day when the doctors would clean the dead tissue it became worse though, and after 3 debridement surgeries, the doctor said It was either get a transfer to a willing facility/doctor, or amputation. Off I went for 7 hours in the back of an ambulance to St Paul(no heli available at the time)... The doctor in St Paul tried to save the arm for another two weeks, but with each surgery there was just less and less healthy tissue left. The morning of the fateful surgery one of the residents brought me my papers to sign and I noticed it said "possible amputation". Whoa. We decided that we would just do a debridement like usual, but if it has to go it has to go. Also we wanted a second opinion from Mayo still, which was about an hour away. Little did we know the doctor was in contact with the team at Mayo in any case... When I awoke from the 8-hour surgery the first thing I noticed was that my armrest used to elevate my left arm, and therefore my arm, was gone... The elbow had gotten infected to the point where it was either going, or I was. With the next two surgeries the doctor did a latissimus flap reconstruction, skin transplant and TMR. Thanks to an amazing prosthetist the doctor had the notes and guidance to do my TMR surgery. The prosthetist, without our knowledge, talked to the doctor and put him in touch with the person at Mayo who does their TMR surgeries. This meant I had TMR done as part of my amputation from the start. TMR(google it) simply and in short means 1.) Muuuuuuuuch less issues with phantom pain(not for everyone) and 2.) More freedom with possible myoelectric prosthesis in the future. Also zero hassle with insurance approval. Talk about favour! I guess that's basically the story. A few other details I didn't mention is all the amazing people that visited me in the hospital. There almost wasn't a day when I didn't have visitors. All but 2 of whom were complete strangers to me. I got Biltong and Smarties in the hospital! Met a ton of ex-saffers as well as a few amazing 'Muricans. The nurses weren't half-bad either.... After getting out the hospital people took us(me+parents) all around St Paul/Minneapolis to sightsee and be tourists. Really had an awesome time. Not without its pains(phantom pain is excruciating, at least at first), but super amazing nonetheless. Right. Back to the farm in ND for a bit to visit everyone there for a couple of weeks until approval for the prosthesis comes through. The approval comes through in record-time, and back to St Paul I go, where I stay with some of the newly-made friends. The fitting process ended on a Wednesday afternoon, about three hours before I was scheduled to fly out of Minneapolis back to Bismarck, where I would get a flight back to SA that Sunday. I guess that's pretty much it. Upwards and onwards! It feels kind of cliché to say that, "was I to have that moment over again, I would of made the same decision". I don't know. My accident was 100% my fault, and I've forgiven myself for that. In retrospect I could see myself making the same decision, even though it was really stupid grabbing that rock out a running machine. Stress and lack of sleep doesn't go great together. Looking back though, all in all, life really ain't bad. Yea I lost and arm; yea I went through a bit of trauma; but I'm still me, and I'm still alive, doing what I love. The growth process that I have been through, the people I've met, the things I've seen, I wouldn't trade that for anything. splat, WaynejG, DJR and 27 others 30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSG Posted February 17, 2020 Share Yea sure. Hope you like reading! If anyone's got any specific questions about whatever, just send me a PM. So in Feb last year, I finished my GED. This meant it was too late to apply for any sort of studies that I thought I might be interested in or whatever(didn't have a clue really anyway...). But I was still a year ahead basically so what the hell. Decided to go farm in the US as a gap year/fundraiser towards studies. Arrived in May and so the 14-hour farm days began... It was good fun too don't get me wrong. We were a week into harvest, which meant 15/16h days, as well as a general rush on everything being done(just an upped tempo). My job was running an airsep, which separates potatoes from rocks, vines and dirt clumps. It was on a trans-load site next to a field. The potatoes would come directly out the field, through the airsep and onto semis to the french-fry-plant. The airsep broke down, so we had to send the trucks coming from the field to our second line at the warehouses. We got her fixed, so I decided to fire the transload line up and just go through everything to make sure it works 100%. I went through the line and the last thing left is the cleaning table on the airsep. That's when I noticed a rock right in the corner of the cleaning table chafing away at the side panel. The rock was about fist-sized so it looked 'safe' enough to grab it without putting my fingers around the rock. In the heat of the moment I grabbed the rock, and.......IMG-20191121-WA0055.jpgIMG-20191121-WA0054.jpgIMG-20191121-WA0043.jpgMy hand and arm got pulled in between one of the steel and rubber rollers as shown in the pictures. Not sure if it was my sleeve or fingers that got caught, but anyway... I cried out to my Lord, and in that moment He gave me the clarity to grab my phone - which was on a clip on my belt - and call for help. The machine ran for about 7 minutes thereafter and then then the help arrived and shut the machine off. We(the help...) called 911 and about 20min later the ambulance arrived. It then took them about 1.5 more hours to get me out, which they finally managed with a torch, after the Jaws, prybars and airbags had failed. I was then rushed to the nearest bigger hospital which was in Bismarck, about 50min away... At first everything looked pretty good apart from the relatively small patch on my upper-arm that was eaten away by the rollers. Day after day when the doctors would clean the dead tissue it became worse though, and after 3 debridement surgeries, the doctor said It was either get a transfer to a willing facility/doctor, or amputation. Off I went for 7 hours in the back of an ambulance to St Paul(no heli available at the time)... The doctor in St Paul tried to save the arm for another two weeks, but with each surgery there was just less and less healthy tissue left. The morning of the fateful surgery one of the residents brought me my papers to sign and I noticed it said "possible amputation". Whoa. We decided that we would just do a debridement like usual, but if it has to go it has to go. Also we wanted a second opinion from Mayo still, which was about an hour away. Little did we know the doctor was in contact with the team at Mayo in any case... When I awoke from the 8-hour surgery the first thing I noticed was that my armrest used to elevate my left arm, and therefore my arm, was gone... The elbow had gotten infected to the point where it was either going, or I was. With the next two surgeries the doctor did a latissimus flap reconstruction, skin transplant and TMR. Thanks to an amazing prosthetist the doctor had the notes and guidance to do my TMR surgery. The prosthetist, without our knowledge, talked to the doctor and put him in touch with the person at Mayo who does their TMR surgeries. This meant I had TMR done as part of my amputation from the start. TMR(google it) simply and in short means 1.) Muuuuuuuuch less issues with phantom pain(not for everyone) and 2.) More freedom with possible myoelectric prosthesis in the future. Also zero hassle with insurance approval. Talk about favour! I guess that's basically the story. A few other details I didn't mention is all the amazing people that visited me in the hospital. There almost wasn't a day when I didn't have visitors. All but 2 of whom were complete strangers to me. I got Biltong and Smarties in the hospital! Met a ton of ex-saffers as well as a few amazing 'Muricans. The nurses weren't half-bad either.... After getting out the hospital people took us(me+parents) all around St Paul/Minneapolis to sightsee and be tourists. Really had an awesome time. Not without its pains(phantom pain is excruciating, at least at first), but super amazing nonetheless. Right. Back to the farm in ND for a bit to visit everyone there for a couple of weeks until approval for the prosthesis comes through. The approval comes through in record-time, and back to St Paul I go, where I stay with some of the newly-made friends. The fitting process ended on a Wednesday afternoon, about three hours before I was scheduled to fly out of Minneapolis back to Bismarck, where I would get a flight back to SA that Sunday. I guess that's pretty much it. Upwards and onwards! It feels kind of cliché to say that, "was I to have that moment over again, I would of made the same decision". I don't know. My accident was 100% my fault, and I've forgiven myself for that. In retrospect I could see myself making the same decision, even though it was really stupid grabbing that rock out a running machine. Stress and lack of sleep doesn't go great together. Looking back though, all in all, life really ain't bad. Yea I lost and arm; yea I went through a bit of trauma; but I'm still me, and I'm still alive, doing what I love. The growth process that I have been through, the people I've met, the things I've seen, I wouldn't trade that for anything.Whow, what an amazing testimony. God is good all the time, yes you lost an arm, but you've grown spiritually so much and now one is able to see ALL the other blessings one has and never say thanks for. Ps, now I understand the pvt chats we had last year and I pray that everything goes from strength to strength for you. Cheers BSG Kalahari Vegmot, Hairy and Me rida my bicycle 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipV Posted February 17, 2020 Share I rode with a guy who had a stroke as a teenager. Left side of his body was paralyzed. He recovered to the point of walking and riding and being able to hold objects in his left hand. He rode two or three epics, and is a private pilot. Very inspiring guy. He put both his brake levers on the right, one lever is upside down (works with the flip-flop style levers) and has a friction shifter exactly like yours for the front derailleur. I reckon he'll be on a 1x system now. Meneer Vegmot, dankie vir jou inspirasie. As jy kans sien, sal jy asb ons op hoogte hou van jou vordering. Kalahari Vegmot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vetseun Posted February 17, 2020 Share Yea sure. Hope you like reading! If anyone's got any specific questions about whatever, just send me a PM. So in Feb last year, I finished my GED. This meant it was too late to apply for any sort of studies that I thought I might be interested in or whatever(didn't have a clue really anyway...). But I was still a year ahead basically so what the hell. Decided to go farm in the US as a gap year/fundraiser towards studies. Arrived in May and so the 14-hour farm days began... It was good fun too don't get me wrong. We were a week into harvest, which meant 15/16h days, as well as a general rush on everything being done(just an upped tempo). My job was running an airsep, which separates potatoes from rocks, vines and dirt clumps. It was on a trans-load site next to a field. The potatoes would come directly out the field, through the airsep and onto semis to the french-fry-plant. The airsep broke down, so we had to send the trucks coming from the field to our second line at the warehouses. We got her fixed, so I decided to fire the transload line up and just go through everything to make sure it works 100%. I went through the line and the last thing left is the cleaning table on the airsep. That's when I noticed a rock right in the corner of the cleaning table chafing away at the side panel. The rock was about fist-sized so it looked 'safe' enough to grab it without putting my fingers around the rock. In the heat of the moment I grabbed the rock, and.......IMG-20191121-WA0055.jpgIMG-20191121-WA0054.jpgIMG-20191121-WA0043.jpgMy hand and arm got pulled in between one of the steel and rubber rollers as shown in the pictures. Not sure if it was my sleeve or fingers that got caught, but anyway... I cried out to my Lord, and in that moment He gave me the clarity to grab my phone - which was on a clip on my belt - and call for help. The machine ran for about 7 minutes thereafter and then then the help arrived and shut the machine off. We(the help...) called 911 and about 20min later the ambulance arrived. It then took them about 1.5 more hours to get me out, which they finally managed with a torch, after the Jaws, prybars and airbags had failed. I was then rushed to the nearest bigger hospital which was in Bismarck, about 50min away... At first everything looked pretty good apart from the relatively small patch on my upper-arm that was eaten away by the rollers. Day after day when the doctors would clean the dead tissue it became worse though, and after 3 debridement surgeries, the doctor said It was either get a transfer to a willing facility/doctor, or amputation. Off I went for 7 hours in the back of an ambulance to St Paul(no heli available at the time)... The doctor in St Paul tried to save the arm for another two weeks, but with each surgery there was just less and less healthy tissue left. The morning of the fateful surgery one of the residents brought me my papers to sign and I noticed it said "possible amputation". Whoa. We decided that we would just do a debridement like usual, but if it has to go it has to go. Also we wanted a second opinion from Mayo still, which was about an hour away. Little did we know the doctor was in contact with the team at Mayo in any case... When I awoke from the 8-hour surgery the first thing I noticed was that my armrest used to elevate my left arm, and therefore my arm, was gone... The elbow had gotten infected to the point where it was either going, or I was. With the next two surgeries the doctor did a latissimus flap reconstruction, skin transplant and TMR. Thanks to an amazing prosthetist the doctor had the notes and guidance to do my TMR surgery. The prosthetist, without our knowledge, talked to the doctor and put him in touch with the person at Mayo who does their TMR surgeries. This meant I had TMR done as part of my amputation from the start. TMR(google it) simply and in short means 1.) Muuuuuuuuch less issues with phantom pain(not for everyone) and 2.) More freedom with possible myoelectric prosthesis in the future. Also zero hassle with insurance approval. Talk about favour! I guess that's basically the story. A few other details I didn't mention is all the amazing people that visited me in the hospital. There almost wasn't a day when I didn't have visitors. All but 2 of whom were complete strangers to me. I got Biltong and Smarties in the hospital! Met a ton of ex-saffers as well as a few amazing 'Muricans. The nurses weren't half-bad either.... After getting out the hospital people took us(me+parents) all around St Paul/Minneapolis to sightsee and be tourists. Really had an awesome time. Not without its pains(phantom pain is excruciating, at least at first), but super amazing nonetheless. Right. Back to the farm in ND for a bit to visit everyone there for a couple of weeks until approval for the prosthesis comes through. The approval comes through in record-time, and back to St Paul I go, where I stay with some of the newly-made friends. The fitting process ended on a Wednesday afternoon, about three hours before I was scheduled to fly out of Minneapolis back to Bismarck, where I would get a flight back to SA that Sunday. I guess that's pretty much it. Upwards and onwards! It feels kind of cliché to say that, "was I to have that moment over again, I would of made the same decision". I don't know. My accident was 100% my fault, and I've forgiven myself for that. In retrospect I could see myself making the same decision, even though it was really stupid grabbing that rock out a running machine. Stress and lack of sleep doesn't go great together. Looking back though, all in all, life really ain't bad. Yea I lost and arm; yea I went through a bit of trauma; but I'm still me, and I'm still alive, doing what I love. The growth process that I have been through, the people I've met, the things I've seen, I wouldn't trade that for anything. Fark oke. That is hectic.Strongs man. Hope you get back on the bike soon and kick some serious ass. Kalahari Vegmot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grease_Monkey Posted February 17, 2020 Share Terrible accident, but you have a truly inspiring attitude towards this. I wish you all the best! Will be following this thread to see what interesting mods you end up making to the bike. Kalahari Vegmot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me rida my bicycle Posted February 17, 2020 Share Yea sure. Hope you like reading! If anyone's got any specific questions about whatever, just send me a PM. So in Feb last year, I finished my GED. This meant it was too late to apply for any sort of studies that I thought I might be interested in or whatever(didn't have a clue really anyway...). But I was still a year ahead basically so what the hell. Decided to go farm in the US as a gap year/fundraiser towards studies. Arrived in May and so the 14-hour farm days began... It was good fun too don't get me wrong. We were a week into harvest, which meant 15/16h days, as well as a general rush on everything being done(just an upped tempo). My job was running an airsep, which separates potatoes from rocks, vines and dirt clumps. It was on a trans-load site next to a field. The potatoes would come directly out the field, through the airsep and onto semis to the french-fry-plant. The airsep broke down, so we had to send the trucks coming from the field to our second line at the warehouses. We got her fixed, so I decided to fire the transload line up and just go through everything to make sure it works 100%. I went through the line and the last thing left is the cleaning table on the airsep. That's when I noticed a rock right in the corner of the cleaning table chafing away at the side panel. The rock was about fist-sized so it looked 'safe' enough to grab it without putting my fingers around the rock. In the heat of the moment I grabbed the rock, and.......IMG-20191121-WA0055.jpgIMG-20191121-WA0054.jpgIMG-20191121-WA0043.jpgMy hand and arm got pulled in between one of the steel and rubber rollers as shown in the pictures. Not sure if it was my sleeve or fingers that got caught, but anyway... I cried out to my Lord, and in that moment He gave me the clarity to grab my phone - which was on a clip on my belt - and call for help. The machine ran for about 7 minutes thereafter and then then the help arrived and shut the machine off. We(the help...) called 911 and about 20min later the ambulance arrived. It then took them about 1.5 more hours to get me out, which they finally managed with a torch, after the Jaws, prybars and airbags had failed. I was then rushed to the nearest bigger hospital which was in Bismarck, about 50min away... At first everything looked pretty good apart from the relatively small patch on my upper-arm that was eaten away by the rollers. Day after day when the doctors would clean the dead tissue it became worse though, and after 3 debridement surgeries, the doctor said It was either get a transfer to a willing facility/doctor, or amputation. Off I went for 7 hours in the back of an ambulance to St Paul(no heli available at the time)... The doctor in St Paul tried to save the arm for another two weeks, but with each surgery there was just less and less healthy tissue left. The morning of the fateful surgery one of the residents brought me my papers to sign and I noticed it said "possible amputation". Whoa. We decided that we would just do a debridement like usual, but if it has to go it has to go. Also we wanted a second opinion from Mayo still, which was about an hour away. Little did we know the doctor was in contact with the team at Mayo in any case... When I awoke from the 8-hour surgery the first thing I noticed was that my armrest used to elevate my left arm, and therefore my arm, was gone... The elbow had gotten infected to the point where it was either going, or I was. With the next two surgeries the doctor did a latissimus flap reconstruction, skin transplant and TMR. Thanks to an amazing prosthetist the doctor had the notes and guidance to do my TMR surgery. The prosthetist, without our knowledge, talked to the doctor and put him in touch with the person at Mayo who does their TMR surgeries. This meant I had TMR done as part of my amputation from the start. TMR(google it) simply and in short means 1.) Muuuuuuuuch less issues with phantom pain(not for everyone) and 2.) More freedom with possible myoelectric prosthesis in the future. Also zero hassle with insurance approval. Talk about favour! I guess that's basically the story. A few other details I didn't mention is all the amazing people that visited me in the hospital. There almost wasn't a day when I didn't have visitors. All but 2 of whom were complete strangers to me. I got Biltong and Smarties in the hospital! Met a ton of ex-saffers as well as a few amazing 'Muricans. The nurses weren't half-bad either.... After getting out the hospital people took us(me+parents) all around St Paul/Minneapolis to sightsee and be tourists. Really had an awesome time. Not without its pains(phantom pain is excruciating, at least at first), but super amazing nonetheless. Right. Back to the farm in ND for a bit to visit everyone there for a couple of weeks until approval for the prosthesis comes through. The approval comes through in record-time, and back to St Paul I go, where I stay with some of the newly-made friends. The fitting process ended on a Wednesday afternoon, about three hours before I was scheduled to fly out of Minneapolis back to Bismarck, where I would get a flight back to SA that Sunday. I guess that's pretty much it. Upwards and onwards! It feels kind of cliché to say that, "was I to have that moment over again, I would of made the same decision". I don't know. My accident was 100% my fault, and I've forgiven myself for that. In retrospect I could see myself making the same decision, even though it was really stupid grabbing that rock out a running machine. Stress and lack of sleep doesn't go great together. Looking back though, all in all, life really ain't bad. Yea I lost and arm; yea I went through a bit of trauma; but I'm still me, and I'm still alive, doing what I love. The growth process that I have been through, the people I've met, the things I've seen, I wouldn't trade that for anything. WOW is all I can think of, wow for what happened and wow for the strong positive attitude you have! I am going to try and make a cable joiner for your brakes. Will keep you posted. Hairy, DJR, Kalahari Vegmot and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalahari Vegmot Posted February 18, 2020 Share WOW is all I can think of, wow for what happened and wow for the strong positive attitude you have! I am going to try and make a cable joiner for your brakes. Will keep you posted.Thank you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kranswurm Posted February 18, 2020 Share That's quite some story.Tough on you and the family I would imagine.All the best for the future Kalahari Vegmot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ouzo Posted February 18, 2020 Share Wow, thanks for sharing. That must have been frightening. Kalahari Vegmot and DJR 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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