Motorists vs Cyclists.... again

[SSCC]

We don't need to guess if high-vis increases cycling safety because it's been studied. If it makes you feel safer then you should wear it but the data proves it's not safer.

The only thing that makes a difference is the treat of enforcement. It's like seeing a traffic cop parked on the side of the road - drivers slow down. The fake police cycling jacket made a difference because people thought they might be fined if they passed too close to the cyclist. 

 

Quote

A high-visibility bicycling jacket was also used, as were two commercially available safety vests, one featuring a prominent mention of the word 'police' and a warning that the rider was video-recording their journey, and one modelled after a police officer's jacket but with a letter changed so it read 'POLITE'. An ultrasonic distance sensor recorded the space left by vehicles passing the bicyclist on a regular commuting route. 5690 data points fulfilled the criteria for the study and were included in the analyses. The only outfit associated with a significant change in mean passing proximities was the police/video-recording jacket. Contrary to predictions, drivers treated the sports outfit and the 'novice cyclist' outfit equivalently, suggesting they do not adjust overtaking proximity as a function of a rider's perceived experience. Notably, whilst some outfits seemed to discourage motorists from passing within 1m of the rider, approximately 1-2% of overtakes came within 50 cm no matter what outfit was worn. This suggests there is little riders can do, by altering their appearance, to prevent the very closest overtakes

 

[RobynE 🚵‍♀️]

The above doesn’t use dark clothing - all clothing used is high viz/safety (including the “Polite” jacket) 

Additionally, it doesn’t address the matter of visibility; only of driver behaviour. 

We’re not discussing if clothing changes intentional behaviour. We know it doesn’t. We’re discussing if brighter kit makes a person more visible in general. 

[Mamil]

15 hours ago, Zebra said:

A SINGLE ride on @ChrisF Revolt, fitted with the Varia Radar, awoke me to the incredible awareness that radar creates…

As a life-long cyclist, radar simply was not on my, er, radar!
 

But, test-riding his bike up Chappies, on a busy Sat/Sun, reinforced how useful it could be as an ADDITIONAL TOOL (common-sense STILL applies…), I bought the Revolt the following week, and after that, Cycle Lab had the Chinese product (Magicshine L508), on a DEEP special, R1999, and after reading 3 overwhelmingly supportive reviews, i bought it, and never looked back….

Thanks, @ChrisF, and thanks Magicshine; money WELL spent!

Never looked back .... I.see what you did there

[wolver]

On 8/15/2025 at 10:00 AM, Da Vinci said:

My observations of a week and a bit of being driven around Cape Town, CampsBay, Stellenbosch and ,of course, Chapmans Peak…

I was thinking of leaving this post until Monday as I am doing a wash, rinse, repeat this weekend again… but seeing as it is fight me Friday, I thought, what the hell.

Note I am on a 33 Seater Coach, a well known branded one.

My colleagues have both been very cool calm collected, measured individuals. Despite people, cars, taxis and some cyclists taking fat, unnecessary chances.

They were not aware of my “allegiance” to cyclists.

Disclaimer: cars, pedestrians, my driver and other HMVs were by no means Angels, but this is a cycling forum 😉

6 out of  10 cyclists ride without a working rear light. An alarming number of these are commuters - and I’m not referring to those on makro specials”  These commuters and morning recreational cyclists in the city don’t appear to be big fans of the “improved and car proofed” green cycling lanes in the city either. Don't get me started on dark clothing… Back D’Ville roads, midwinter mornings….

Out of a group of about 10 - 12 Bunched up in the yellow lane and to the left of yellow line, at least  2 will swerve out to go around another cyclist, without looking or giving any indication of their intention.

1 out of 5 groups will stop at a traffic light.

i didn’t see any stop at a stop street. Nor yield at the mini circles down Houtbay main road. Or the pedestrian crossings.

My driver was reluctant to “warning hoot” a bunch of 5 or 6  we were approaching on Chappies up. I asked why he didn’t to alert them that we were approaching from behind. He said the hooter was too loud and cyclists would generally give him a middle finger if he hooted.

They were oblivious to his approach and not single file but he was quite happy to sit behind them. I thought that giving them a heads up would help them reorganize and let them know that a large vehicle would be passing them.

** Note that when they did international advanced safety driver training for the World Cup  they were told they should be warning hooting for all cyclists, pedestrians they were approaching. I remember the husband’s comment at the time was something along the lines of: How to get your driver assaulted for just doing his job!

On the descent to Noordhoek, one decided to undertake, another decided to overtake, narrowly missing a car coming from the front….

By no means were all the riders bad or bad mannered. We had one guy acknowledge with a hand wave that the bus waited behind him so he could comfortably ride in the middle of the lane going through Clifton. “Adopt the Safest position on the road”

it was a quiet Sunday on Chappies and we were early. The marathon runners going past Cape Point that morning were far more oblivious. My colleague had the patience and reflexes of a ninja 🤣

Oh and 3 out of 5 cars, illegally parked on the bus parking at Stellenbosch museum, on a Saturday, are cyclists. The bike racks give it away….

We cannot paint everything with the same brush, but it is nice to be able to sit back and  observe sometimes.

Safe rolling on the roads this weekend!

My 2c....

The changes they have made to the cycling lane in Bree street have made them WORSE! I go down Bree street a couple of times a week at all times of the day and I don't think I have EVER successfully cycled the lane from start to end without having to go around an illegally parked car, even before 6am. The kerbs they have put in now make it even worse, because cars now back up to right where they end, so now you are stuck in the lane and have to bunny hop the yellow kerb to get around the illegally parked car... not ideal on a road bike.

 

Warning hoots should not be a thing! You are approaching from behind and can see when its safe to pass, so just do that! If they are riding like a chop and unnecessarily taking up too much space, then by all means blast a hoot (not referring to owning the lane when there isn't actually enough space/blind corners to pass safely, guess thats a different debate rider will never win).

 

Lastly... I would not object to riding with a Garmin Varia being a law, just like wearing a helmet. I can't ride without mine, it adds so much value to the experience on the road!

[SSCC]

2 hours ago, RobynE 🚵‍♀️ said:

We’re not discussing if clothing changes intentional behaviour. We know it doesn’t. We’re discussing if brighter kit makes a person more visible in general. 

You can discuss whatever you like. I'm making a comment on clothing and driver behavior. 

[RobynE 🚵‍♀️]

1 hour ago, SSCC said:

You can discuss whatever you like. I'm making a comment on clothing and driver behavior. 

Cool. 

[Bro Derek]

19 hours ago, wolver said:

 

Lastly... I would not object to riding with a Garmin Varia being a law, just like wearing a helmet. I can't ride without mine, it adds so much value to the experience on the road!

Law for whom?

Commuters and people using bikes as transport definitely can't afford one. Hell, a Varia is way out of my cycling budget. 

If we are talking ideals, they should probably remove the road maintenance budget, make small electric cars mandatory in cities, or better, electric bikes, ban large footprint 1 person vehicles and spend that money on creating better public transport

Cars are largely unnecessary, but motonormativity 

[wolver]

25 minutes ago, Bro Derek said:

Law for whom?

Commuters and people using bikes as transport definitely can't afford one. Hell, a Varia is way out of my cycling budget. 

If we are talking ideals, they should probably remove the road maintenance budget, make small electric cars mandatory in cities, or better, electric bikes, ban large footprint 1 person vehicles and spend that money on creating better public transport

Cars are largely unnecessary, but motonormativity 

Everyone!

The law also says you must drive a roadworthy vehicle.... hows that working out?

Obviously it's not realistic, the point I was trying to make is that a radar does make a difference to my experience on the road.

[LazyTrailRider]

On 8/15/2025 at 8:10 PM, Zebra said:

A SINGLE ride on @ChrisF Revolt, fitted with the Varia Radar, awoke me to the incredible awareness that radar creates…

As a life-long cyclist, radar simply was not on my, er, radar!
 

But, test-riding his bike up Chappies, on a busy Sat/Sun, reinforced how useful it could be as an ADDITIONAL TOOL (common-sense STILL applies…), I bought the Revolt the following week, and after that, Cycle Lab had the Chinese product (Magicshine L508), on a DEEP special, R1999, and after reading 3 overwhelmingly supportive reviews, i bought it, and never looked back….

Thanks, @ChrisF, and thanks Magicshine; money WELL spent!

Wait till you see the stats. On a Saturday morning in the peninsula, my Varia records being passed by an average of 200 vehicles per hour…

[Hairy]

On 8/16/2025 at 10:22 AM, SSCC said:

We don't need to guess if high-vis increases cycling safety because it's been studied. If it makes you feel safer then you should wear it but the data proves it's not safer.

The only thing that makes a difference is the treat of enforcement. It's like seeing a traffic cop parked on the side of the road - drivers slow down. The fake police cycling jacket made a difference because people thought they might be fined if they passed too close to the cyclist. 

 

 

If you want visibility on the road ... front and rear flashing lights.

[RobynE 🚵‍♀️]

I would buy a Varia if Garmin figured a way to buzz the car. I’m alert. Someone looking at their phone isn’t. 

Yesterday I had a very nice mid day road ride with people consistently passing me generously. I was leery being that it was booze and rendezvous o’clock on a Saturday and it was a little cloudy. 

I did have my F/R flashing lights and was wearing a high contrast jersey (black and white) and my orange helmet and bright “tie dye” Krank’d socks.

Not sure which of those contributed - if any - but I’m going to say, all of them. So thank you to all the drivers around Fourways/Kyalami yesterday - zero chops. 

[Bro Derek]

5 hours ago, wolver said:

Everyone!

The law also says you must drive a roadworthy vehicle.... hows that working out?

Obviously it's not realistic, the point I was trying to make is that a radar does make a difference to my experience on the road.

A large motorized vehicle should have a radar that buzzes if something is protruding into it's space in front of it.
 

Or, as I said, remove most of the vehicles from the road. In the cities I have lived in that have made cars mostly redundant, I have always been happiest and less stressed.

You also find people treat others more like people as they are constantly in each others space without a 2 ton metal death bubble separating them

south Africa is a terribly segregated society. We leave our walled castle in our enclosed metal bubble, get annoyed at other groups of road users, park, moan about the parking, then go to a shop/mall/gym and moan about other shop/mall/gym users that we feel are in our way while wearing airpods, then finish whatever we are doing and go home to our castle. 

in SA 70% of people don't know the names of their neighbours.

If we had more car free zones, people would be surrounded by people, which creates interaction and humanizing of groups and people we don't know.

This is not an opinion, this is based on examples and studies already done.

Until we can see the car as the problem, we will remain in this cycle. It's easy to hate 'cyclists', 'them', and other groups if we constantly dehumanize them. 

Motonormativity makes us all try to justify things from the point of view of a car or a driver, instead of looking at things as they are. Cars are only important because cars are seemingly important. 1 person driving around in a double cab ranger should be illegal. I person in an SUV, illegal. There is absolutely no need for it, especially in CBDs and areas that would be far better served with pedestrian/cycle traffic.

This is all not going away until peoples small egos can realise their car doesn't make their willy bigger and you don't need a 4x4 to drive to the Kalahari on dirt roads once every 3 years

 

[ChrisF]

13 minutes ago, Bro Derek said:

A large motorized vehicle should have a radar that buzzes if something is protruding into it's space in front of it.
 

Or, as I said, remove most of the vehicles from the road. In the cities I have lived in that have made cars mostly redundant, I have always been happiest and less stressed.

You also find people treat others more like people as they are constantly in each others space without a 2 ton metal death bubble separating them

south Africa is a terribly segregated society. We leave our walled castle in our enclosed metal bubble, get annoyed at other groups of road users, park, moan about the parking, then go to a shop/mall/gym and moan about other shop/mall/gym users that we feel are in our way while wearing airpods, then finish whatever we are doing and go home to our castle. 

in SA 70% of people don't know the names of their neighbours.

If we had more car free zones, people would be surrounded by people, which creates interaction and humanizing of groups and people we don't know.

This is not an opinion, this is based on examples and studies already done.

Until we can see the car as the problem, we will remain in this cycle. It's easy to hate 'cyclists', 'them', and other groups if we constantly dehumanize them. 

Motonormativity makes us all try to justify things from the point of view of a car or a driver, instead of looking at things as they are. Cars are only important because cars are seemingly important. 1 person driving around in a double cab ranger should be illegal. I person in an SUV, illegal. There is absolutely no need for it, especially in CBDs and areas that would be far better served with pedestrian/cycle traffic.

This is all not going away until peoples small egos can realise their car doesn't make their willy bigger and you don't need a 4x4 to drive to the Kalahari on dirt roads once every 3 years

 

 

SO far removed from reality .... at least in the reality of SA.

 

Masses can use public transport, IF it functions properly.  In the 80's and 90's I used it much more than my car.

 

In the absence of working and safe public transport the options reduce drastically.

 

As for 1 person per vehicle ... heck, a driving club saves a lot of money .... BUT, many of us spend a lot of time driving to clients and sites, most often alone.

 

 

Introduce a safe, working and reliable public transport and then your version carries more weight.

[Bro Derek]

45 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

 

SO far removed from reality .... at least in the reality of SA.

 

Masses can use public transport, IF it functions properly.  In the 80's and 90's I used it much more than my car.

 

In the absence of working and safe public transport the options reduce drastically.

 

As for 1 person per vehicle ... heck, a driving club saves a lot of money .... BUT, many of us spend a lot of time driving to clients and sites, most often alone.

 

 

Introduce a safe, working and reliable public transport and then your version carries more weight.

There we go. You have quite literally just made what I said in my 2 posts a reality

The first person to want to cling to their car because they use it a lot 

My post before the one you quoted is relevant to your reply.

Not you or anyone can tell me you need a double cab bakkie to visit clients alone

 

[ChrisF]

Just now, Bro Derek said:

There we go. You have quite literally just made what I said in my 2 posts a reality

The first person to want to cling to their car because they use it a lot 

My post before the one you quoted is relevant to your reply.

Not you or anyone can tell me you need a double cab bakkie to visit clients alone

 

 

And again ... WRONG 🤣

 

I commute every opportunity I get to do it, i.e. days in the office

 

But when my day includes a few hours driving to clients and sites I have no other option.

[Bro Derek]

34 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

 

And again ... WRONG 🤣

 

I commute every opportunity I get to do it, i.e. days in the office

 

But when my day includes a few hours driving to clients and sites I have no other option.

How am I wrong?

It's not about you, it is the broad picture. 

You can do whatever you want to. 

You are trying to convince me that there aren't alternatives to what exists. 

If you read my first post and my second posts that flow into the discussion, you will see that your replies quite literally just reinforce what I have said. 

So perhaps stop trying to make it about you, read the comments to understand what I'm saying instead of reading them to be more right, and come back to me.

Again, 1 person in an SUV or Bakkie is not necessary. You can drive a small footprint vehicle when necessary.

Anyway, until you can understand motonormativity, how you fit in and have experienced the alternatives in a working, everyday environment, you will never agree with me. Which is again, the point I was trying to make

I'm not right, as mentioned, we are talking ideals. You are also not right, unless you want to keep making it about you. I don't know you other than your ability to use personal anecdotal facts to prove points on this site, so I can never win that