Jeremy Vine sparks cycling row by posting video of riders four abreast on quiet road and saying it should be ENCOURAGED

[ChrisF]

12 minutes ago, Rolf Hansen said:

Not sure I understand this correctly.

Surely it does not matter what you think is the correct way in South Africa; last time I checked it is illegal in South Africa to ride abreast. 

 

Let me get my popcorn ready ...

 

The roadies WONT take that type of insult quietly ....

 

 

"right" or "wrong" escapes this group .... rather they WILL give you a lecture on owning the road .... until the next car comes over a blind rise on the wrong side of the road .... 

 

Somehow the concept of "two wrongs dont make a right" escapes the average "group ride" .....

 

 

There is abut ONE FACT in this discussion .... Metal will always be stronger than flesh .... 

 

 

Ride to get home safely.

 

 

 

PS - riding along I hug the left side of the road, and cars seldom have to wait for any period of time to pass me safely.  Every so often I see riders ahead, riding side by side, BLOCKING the road and holding up traffic .... never understood "this" ...

[lechatnoir]

6 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

Ride to get home safely.

^^^^^ THIS!!!

It helps little to be in the right, but injured or worse. Our loved ones won't care... 

[Mamil]

Metal is stronger than flesh and bone no doubt about it but Idon't like the implication of a moral stance that seems to suggest "might makes right". 

The issue is a cultivation of a society in which vulnerability is protected rather than steamrollered under someone's need to get somewhere else, usually the next robot, as fast as possible.

To me this is one of the ways bicycles can change the world - slow down on the uphills - freewheel the downhills - it's possible to get from Franschoek to Villiersdorp in a little over an hour and a quarter or from Rosebank to Noordhoek in about the same time - more by car in rush hour

[DieselnDust]

30 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

Let me get my popcorn ready ...

 

The roadies WONT take that type of insult quietly ....

 

 

"right" or "wrong" escapes this group .... rather they WILL give you a lecture on owning the road .... until the next car comes over a blind rise on the wrong side of the road .... 

 

Somehow the concept of "two wrongs dont make a right" escapes the average "group ride" .....

 

 

There is abut ONE FACT in this discussion .... Metal will always be stronger than flesh .... 

 

 

Ride to get home safely.

 

 

 

PS - riding along I hug the left side of the road, and cars seldom have to wait for any period of time to pass me safely.  Every so often I see riders ahead, riding side by side, BLOCKING the road and holding up traffic .... never understood "this" ...

A) How our society currently is....

9 minutes ago, Mamil said:

Metal is stronger than flesh and bone no doubt about it but Idon't like the implication of a moral stance that seems to suggest "might makes right". 

The issue is a cultivation of a society in which vulnerability is protected rather than steamrollered under someone's need to get somewhere else, usually the next robot, as fast as possible.

To me this is one of the ways bicycles can change the world - slow down on the uphills - freewheel the downhills - it's possible to get from Franschoek to Villiersdorp in a little over an hour and a quarter or from Rosebank to Noordhoek in about the same time - more by car in rush hour

B) Where we want our society to evolve toward

 

A -> B = happiness and a cleaner environment for all

 

I agree that we should ride to be safe. That still doesn't lower the risk of becoming road kill because motoring behaviour is way below the standard required for safe commuting in any thing other than another steel cage. A motorist overtaking over a blind rise is more of a danger to another motorist because the closing speed is likely 200km/hr. Its also dangerous for a (group of ) cyclist(s) as they are unprotected. Society needs to change the behaviour of reckless driving being accepted. Prosecutors are only interested in soft targets. Why can I not video an aggressive idiot in a Navara overtaking on a blind rise and send the footage to the nearest traffic department and have the cretin arrested at the next town? Being a week late for the Knysna MTB maybe help him change his cretin behaviour. Why does his wife not get out herself and the children out of the car and refuse to drive any further till he changes behaviour? Why is his poor behaviour acceptable? But a cyclist riding next to his riding buddy inside the cycle lane gets the Navara wing mirror and is blamed for his own death because not single file...... has insanity become normalised?

[The Ouzo]

Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes

 

This should be a lot more literal. 

[Eldron]

It's better to be wrong and alive than right and dead...

Also - just give a **** about each other. We wouldn't need rules and opinions and rights and arguments if we thought beyond our own circle. That, of course, is pretty hard to do in a country with the stress level of South Africa!

[Dicky DQ]

6 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

The value of life and the perception of grandeur..

Our systems here are broken. It's even prevalent on this site, with people thinking they are better and looking down on other cyclists because they know more about bikes than other cyclists, despite not actually being better at riding them.

In a world where the wealthy can make things go away and those less fortunate have nothing to lose, there is seldom any recourse and due to the lack of consequence, things are far more easily 'justified'.

The attitude of people are a symptom of our past.

There are always exceptions, but as a collective whole, there is little to no actual compassion to people as people. Many South Africans believe themselves above those around them and many many of the rest just don't care.

To me the biggest issue is non enforcement of the law period.

We need to go with the broken window approach, no crime is too small etc. Enforce and convict, then move up the ladder. (I will be one of those caught and convicted) But as long as there are no consequences who cares what the laws state. Same nonsense as going to 0% blood alcohol. What good is it having it on the statutes, but not enforced. Rather have reasonable laws that ARE ENFORCED. Then you will see compliance and a eventualy enforcement will be less needed as the masses will abide and self enforce.

Sad thing is we are in cowboy country and anything goes no matter what the law states.

 

[ChrisF]

4 minutes ago, TDFN said:

To me the biggest issue is non enforcement of the law period.

We need to go with the broken window approach, no crime is too small etc. Enforce and convict, then move up the ladder. (I will be one of those caught and convicted) But as long as there are no consequences who cares what the laws state. Same nonsense as going to 0% blood alcohol. What good is it having it on the statutes, but not enforced. Rather have reasonable laws that ARE ENFORCED. Then you will see compliance and a eventualy enforcement will be less needed as the masses will abide and self enforce.

Sad thing is we are in cowboy country and anything goes no matter what the law states.

 

 

10 years ago there were 5 or 6 speed-cameras along the N1 to Paarl section .... but the camera kept on moving between incoming and outgoing, and different positions over a 20km stretch ...

 

Those of us USING that section for business knew about this.  You got to 125km/h max, then kept the cruise control on ....

 

VERY SOON only the out of towners were speeding on this section.

 

 

ENFORCE the current laws, and KEEP ON enforcing it !!!

 

I was speaking to Maritz on Saturday morning, seeing a sports car without a number plate .... "a fine" means NOTHING to this person !!!  IMPOUND his car for 14 days, then let him pay a fine before he gets it back.  The punishment should be more than just a financial fine, it should motivate a change in behaviour.

 

 

Some older members may remember the traffic system in the 60's and 70's .... ROADBLOCKS, lots and lots of roadblocks !!!  In one of these my dad got a fine for a light that did not work.  A HEFTY fine !!!   BUT, in the most pleasant tone the traffic official pointed out that he had 14 days to have the light repaired and to report to any police station to show this, and then to have the fine nulified.  

[BigDL]

31 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

 

10 years ago there were 5 or 6 speed-cameras along the N1 to Paarl section .... but the camera kept on moving between incoming and outgoing, and different positions over a 20km stretch ...

 

Those of us USING that section for business knew about this.  You got to 125km/h max, then kept the cruise control on ....

 

VERY SOON only the out of towners were speeding on this section.

 

 

ENFORCE the current laws, and KEEP ON enforcing it !!!

 

I was speaking to Maritz on Saturday morning, seeing a sports car without a number plate .... "a fine" means NOTHING to this person !!!  IMPOUND his car for 14 days, then let him pay a fine before he gets it back.  The punishment should be more than just a financial fine, it should motivate a change in behaviour.

 

 

Some older members may remember the traffic system in the 60's and 70's .... ROADBLOCKS, lots and lots of roadblocks !!!  In one of these my dad got a fine for a light that did not work.  A HEFTY fine !!!   BUT, in the most pleasant tone the traffic official pointed out that he had 14 days to have the light repaired and to report to any police station to show this, and then to have the fine nulified.  

It wasn't all rosy in the old days. I remember being stopped at roadblocks in the 80's and 90's, pissed as a cricket, and being sent on my way because I could talk the talk

[OVERDRIVE]

13 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

The value of life and the perception of grandeur..

Our systems here are broken. It's even prevalent on this site, with people thinking they are better and looking down on other cyclists because they know more about bikes than other cyclists, despite not actually being better at riding them.

In a world where the wealthy can make things go away and those less fortunate have nothing to lose, there is seldom any recourse and due to the lack of consequence, things are far more easily 'justified'.

The attitude of people are a symptom of our past.

There are always exceptions, but as a collective whole, there is little to no actual compassion to people as people. Many South Africans believe themselves above those around them and many many of the rest just don't care.

This is the TRUTH. 

[OVERDRIVE]

10 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

 

 

Expanding on my simple one liner as there are many aspects that need to be considered.

We SAFFAs have bad attitudes towards other road users. IMO the average motorist is worst of the lot because very few commute to contribute to the economy (other than by paying fuel taxes), are wasted space (single occupant vehicles) and cause more road damage (other than overloaded commercial road transport).

Motorists hate buses, trucks, taxis, cyclists, pedestrians, livestock and even other motorists. Other than simple bullying and ego I can't see the cause for all the hate this user group displays

Cyclist hate all the other user groups because they feel endangered by the other other user groups. Its the most efficient mode of transport for a single person and for short trips. Some cyclists also feel the road traffic act does not apply to them and that other road users must just understand this even if if means the little old lady crossing the road has to break her hip leaping out of the way of the cyclist who feels that stopping is too much of an inconvenience.

Commercial road transport operators hate motorists and taxis because the operators of those vehicles do not understand the complexity of operating a 20t truck laden with goods. Getting cut off in traffic or on the highways has expensive mechanical consequences and often the only objective to cutting off the truck is so that the motorist can get to the traffic first. Taxi's are at least trying to get to the next passenger first while the motorists is just looking for an opportunity to show the next motorist how quickly they can get to 60km/hr from a standing start.

Pedestrians have their own road which many seem to prefer not to use and instead will a) walk in the road, b) walk in the middle of the road, or c)  walk in the cycle lane provide for cyclists thus endangering the two wheeled traffic.

Motorcyclists hate everyone. They even organise motorcycle rallies for the purpose of taking over the road, riding illegally,  then make themselves the police by telling everyone how to drive, cycle , walk or even ride other types of motorcycle.

bus and taxi drivers......ya well just don't get in their way where ever that way may be because in the case of Taxi the road is just a general guideline and "rules were made to be broken" (taken off the back of a motorcyclists leather jacket btw)...

 

I could go on but I have work to do. The jist of the problem is without consequences to bad actions the middle finger will continue to be the common greeting in SA Consequences does not only mean more police but also at an interpersonal level. I've told peeps who used ot cycle with me to please rather ride on their own because their bad road manners isn't good for my safety. I've lost friends who didn't want me to drive them home and thus emasculate their ego....

I try to do my bit and sometimes I fail, sometimes I'm the git but its a journey and even if that means I end up swearing a lot I'm not using my car or bike as a weapon. I will stand up for my rights especially If I'm not in the wrong. As someone who was in the wrong once cynically pointed out "so you think you're better than everybody (because apparently everybody rides through red lights et al).......wel no I don't think I'm better but I do try to be the best version of what a considerate human being should be as imperfect as that may be

Man...well put I must say. 

[The Ouzo]

15 hours ago, ChrisF said:

 

10 years ago there were 5 or 6 speed-cameras along the N1 to Paarl section .... but the camera kept on moving between incoming and outgoing, and different positions over a 20km stretch ...

 

Those of us USING that section for business knew about this.  You got to 125km/h max, then kept the cruise control on ....

 

VERY SOON only the out of towners were speeding on this section.

 

 

ENFORCE the current laws, and KEEP ON enforcing it !!!

 

I was speaking to Maritz on Saturday morning, seeing a sports car without a number plate .... "a fine" means NOTHING to this person !!!  IMPOUND his car for 14 days, then let him pay a fine before he gets it back.  The punishment should be more than just a financial fine, it should motivate a change in behaviour.

 

 

Some older members may remember the traffic system in the 60's and 70's .... ROADBLOCKS, lots and lots of roadblocks !!!  In one of these my dad got a fine for a light that did not work.  A HEFTY fine !!!   BUT, in the most pleasant tone the traffic official pointed out that he had 14 days to have the light repaired and to report to any police station to show this, and then to have the fine nulified.  

when I started legally driving in the 90's you would not even put your front wheels over the white line at a traffic light or stop sign for fear of being fined per wheel over the line,

[MTBeer]

15 hours ago, ChrisF said:

 

10 years ago there were 5 or 6 speed-cameras along the N1 to Paarl section .... but the camera kept on moving between incoming and outgoing, and different positions over a 20km stretch ...

 

Those of us USING that section for business knew about this.  You got to 125km/h max, then kept the cruise control on ....

 

VERY SOON only the out of towners were speeding on this section.

 

 

ENFORCE the current laws, and KEEP ON enforcing it !!!

 

I was speaking to Maritz on Saturday morning, seeing a sports car without a number plate .... "a fine" means NOTHING to this person !!!  IMPOUND his car for 14 days, then let him pay a fine before he gets it back.  The punishment should be more than just a financial fine, it should motivate a change in behaviour.

 

 

Some older members may remember the traffic system in the 60's and 70's .... ROADBLOCKS, lots and lots of roadblocks !!!  In one of these my dad got a fine for a light that did not work.  A HEFTY fine !!!   BUT, in the most pleasant tone the traffic official pointed out that he had 14 days to have the light repaired and to report to any police station to show this, and then to have the fine nulified.  

They should do this in SA.

In Finland, speeding fines are linked to salary. The Finns run a “day fine” system that is calculated on the basis of an offender’s daily disposable income – generally their daily salary divided by two.

The more a driver is over the speed limit, the greater the number of day fines they will receive.

This has led to headline-grabbing fines when wealthy drivers have been caught driving very fast.

In 2002, Anssi Vanjoki, a former Nokia director, was ordered to pay a fine of 116,000 euros ($103,600) after being caught driving 75km/h in a 50km/h zone on his motorbike.

And in 2015, Finnish businessman Reima Kuisla was fined 54,000 euro ($62,000) for driving 22km/h over the 50km/h speed limit.

Wealthy okes feel nothing for the law in this country. In my opinion they are worse than the taxis

 

 

[DieselnDust]

20 hours ago, Rolf Hansen said:

Not sure I understand this correctly.

Surely it does not matter what you think is the correct way in South Africa; last time I checked it is illegal in South Africa to ride abreast. 

 

unless in the process of overtaking, or riding in a dedicated bike lane.

Same applies to motorists driving two cars abreast on a dual lane road. They may not block the flow of traffic by travelling alongside. Overtake and pull left.

How many times do you see a CY number plate pull left without a puncture?