Is a Bike Fitter Enough?

[DieselnDust]

10 minutes ago, RobertWhitehead said:

So here's my opinion based on my own experience: 

A bike fitment from a bike fitter doesn't add too much value. I have had a few fitments in the past and found that the only difference between their findings and what this website gives: https://www.competitivecyclist.com/Store/catalog/fitCalculatorBike.jsp is that the tolerances are smaller with a fitter and they charge for something you can find freely on the interwebs . 

But work on your flexibility and core

that fitting system does not account for foot length, flexibility in upper legs, lower back and shoulders.

It doe snot account for joint misalignments etc. A bike fitter has their place in the ecosystem

[buckstopper]

Hijack. Annemiek looks like she needs a bike fit. Could she be even better? Her pigeon-toed-toe-down style somehow doesn't look right when compared to other greats. 

[DieselnDust]

27 minutes ago, buckstopper said:

Hijack. Annemiek looks like she needs a bike fit. Could she be even better? Her pigeon-toed-toe-down style somehow doesn't look right when compared to other greats. 

Ashleigh..?

Chris Froome....?

Primoz?

Richard Carapaz?

Indurain's low cadence?

Pozzovivo

 

I'm sure her bike fit is working just fine. Just because it doesn't conform to some text book style doesn't mean it hasn't been derived without the help of a professional practitioner or sports scientist

[buckstopper]

Maybe it is just fine. Or maybe it could be better. Neil Stanbury thinks her saddle is set too high, but qualifies that by pointing out that she's won 4 World championships. 

As to your point about professional practitioners and sport scientists, could it be that they daren't suggest a change to someone of her stature, or that she just doesn't listen? Are some pros like that, above the suggestions of mortals? Maybe someone reading this has an inside track on how well pros actually listen to their coaches and resident experts. 

Question, to what degree to GPs (mentioned in a previous post), sport scientists and bike fitters understand cycling biomechanics?  Is there a cycling biomechanics bible, who wrote it, and what are its assumptions? Who are the gurus? Steve Hogg? Andy Pruitt? Stanbury?

If people are left underwhelmed by "bike fit experts", what does that say about these experts? Could it mean that the system/programme devised and sold to experts is based on rule of thumb assumptions, and don't work for everyone. I would argue that a true expert should be able to solve for those outside of the norm, or not take payment

 

[RobertWhitehead]

6 hours ago, buckstopper said:

Maybe it is just fine. Or maybe it could be better. Neil Stanbury thinks her saddle is set too high, but qualifies that by pointing out that she's won 4 World championships. 

As to your point about professional practitioners and sport scientists, could it be that they daren't suggest a change to someone of her stature, or that she just doesn't listen? Are some pros like that, above the suggestions of mortals? Maybe someone reading this has an inside track on how well pros actually listen to their coaches and resident experts. 

Question, to what degree to GPs (mentioned in a previous post), sport scientists and bike fitters understand cycling biomechanics?  Is there a cycling biomechanics bible, who wrote it, and what are its assumptions? Who are the gurus? Steve Hogg? Andy Pruitt? Stanbury?

If people are left underwhelmed by "bike fit experts", what does that say about these experts? Could it mean that the system/programme devised and sold to experts is based on rule of thumb assumptions, and don't work for everyone. I would argue that a true expert should be able to solve for those outside of the norm, or not take payment

 

This has made me think, I mean if you get on a bike and you're comfortable, push proper watts and do not hurt yourself with a saddle that's too high/low then what value will be gained by going to an outsider for 45-60min? Please don't get me wrong, I do see a fitters value and or place in society, I mean if a complete noob with lots of cash goes and buys the latest and greatest then a fitment definitely adds value. But, will it add value to force someone who's been riding for years into a different position by making changes to their setup? Yes one can argue that long term you're going to see the benefits because your riding style / cockpit is set up optimally but what about the short term? Let's say a fitter adjusts a setup and that person goes and does a race or just a 100km ride and gets an injury or other muscles groups are now working and he / she finishes 30min slower. Does he / she attribute the injury / poor performance to the snake oil still having to do it's magic or does he / she revert back to what worked? My money is on the latter. 

[NotSoBigBen]

No amount of hours spent at  'bike fitment'  will be a silver bullet when what's needed is actually just getting 'bike fit'... Sometimes it really is just  TITS so that your body can adapt. 

If you've already done the hard yards or buying a first bike it is probably well worth the $$$ to have a bike fitment but hey I'm just a hacker, old and grumpy so don't mind me 

[J Wakefield]

11 hours ago, buckstopper said:

Hijack. Annemiek looks like she needs a bike fit. Could she be even better? Her pigeon-toed-toe-down style somehow doesn't look right when compared to other greats. 

That’s why every individual is different. No one fit fits all

[J Wakefield]

9 hours ago, buckstopper said:

Maybe it is just fine. Or maybe it could be better. Neil Stanbury thinks her saddle is set too high, but qualifies that by pointing out that she's won 4 World championships. 

As to your point about professional practitioners and sport scientists, could it be that they daren't suggest a change to someone of her stature, or that she just doesn't listen? Are some pros like that, above the suggestions of mortals? Maybe someone reading this has an inside track on how well pros actually listen to their coaches and resident experts. 

Question, to what degree to GPs (mentioned in a previous post), sport scientists and bike fitters understand cycling biomechanics?  Is there a cycling biomechanics bible, who wrote it, and what are its assumptions? Who are the gurus? Steve Hogg? Andy Pruitt? Stanbury?

If people are left underwhelmed by "bike fit experts", what does that say about these experts? Could it mean that the system/programme devised and sold to experts is based on rule of thumb assumptions, and don't work for everyone. I would argue that a true expert should be able to solve for those outside of the norm, or not take payment

 

Watching a video and commenting on someone’s fitment is as accurate as predicting when Jesus will save the world. 
 

You have no history or knowledge on why or how.

same as the guy predicting wkg during the tour. Some are so far removed from accurate 

[Furbz]

11 minutes ago, J Wakefield said:

Watching a video and commenting on someone’s fitment is as accurate as predicting when Jesus will save the world. 
 

You have no history or knowledge on why or how.

same as the guy predicting wkg during the tour. Some are so far removed from accurate 

i must PM you and find your local offices.

need a fitment on my new bike

[DieselnDust]

9 hours ago, buckstopper said:

Maybe it is just fine. Or maybe it could be better. Neil Stanbury thinks her saddle is set too high, but qualifies that by pointing out that she's won 4 World championships. 

As to your point about professional practitioners and sport scientists, could it be that they daren't suggest a change to someone of her stature, or that she just doesn't listen? Are some pros like that, above the suggestions of mortals? Maybe someone reading this has an inside track on how well pros actually listen to their coaches and resident experts. 

Question, to what degree to GPs (mentioned in a previous post), sport scientists and bike fitters understand cycling biomechanics?  Is there a cycling biomechanics bible, who wrote it, and what are its assumptions? Who are the gurus? Steve Hogg? Andy Pruitt? Stanbury?

If people are left underwhelmed by "bike fit experts", what does that say about these experts? Could it mean that the system/programme devised and sold to experts is based on rule of thumb assumptions, and don't work for everyone. I would argue that a true expert should be able to solve for those outside of the norm, or not take payment

 

 

 

Ok so how does any expert reach that status of expert or Subject Matter Expert?

Study, experience, failure, learning some more and numbers.

Is a self taught bike fitter with a 1000 successful bike fits and client satisfaction inferior to an app that has no track record other than some good reviews?

Is the bike fitters opinion, as an SME, therefore superior or carry more influence than a successful clients'?

We're really delving to broadly here to add much value to the discussion because the purpose of a any professional is either identify a problem before it occurs and prevent it - proactive approach

or

to solve a problem after it has manifested - reactive approach.

Most problems are solved in the reactive space. This is human nature. We go to the doctor when we feel something is off. Most people don't go to the doctor for an annual checkup religiously if they consider themselves to be healthy - chicken and egg scenario.

 

Re the video:

It come back to the above. He sees issues where the riders selves don't. If you tell some one to bed their legs and support a feather correctly when picking it up so they don't injure themselves are they going to listen to you are will they repeat that action 1million times before the injury happens.

are both wrong or are both right? The injury may happen it may not.

an injury ay also occur as a result of the change. Who is right then and who is wrong?

Its outcomes based isn't it?

 

 

[J Wakefield]

1 hour ago, DieselnDust said:

 

 

Ok so how does any expert reach that status of expert or Subject Matter Expert?

Study, experience, failure, learning some more and numbers.

Is a self taught bike fitter with a 1000 successful bike fits and client satisfaction inferior to an app that has no track record other than some good reviews?

Is the bike fitters opinion, as an SME, therefore superior or carry more influence than a successful clients'?

We're really delving to broadly here to add much value to the discussion because the purpose of a any professional is either identify a problem before it occurs and prevent it - proactive approach

or

to solve a problem after it has manifested - reactive approach.

Most problems are solved in the reactive space. This is human nature. We go to the doctor when we feel something is off. Most people don't go to the doctor for an annual checkup religiously if they consider themselves to be healthy - chicken and egg scenario.

 

Re the video:

It come back to the above. He sees issues where the riders selves don't. If you tell some one to bed their legs and support a feather correctly when picking it up so they don't injure themselves are they going to listen to you are will they repeat that action 1million times before the injury happens.

are both wrong or are both right? The injury may happen it may not.

an injury ay also occur as a result of the change. Who is right then and who is wrong?

Its outcomes based isn't it?

 

 

If I really had to be a dick I could say that once some riders he has fitted come back from Australia we have had to make a series of corrections for them into the new season.

[eala]

On 8/8/2023 at 1:54 PM, Ncayi said:

Like "many" cyclists I have never had a professional bike fit. On my part mostly due to being stingy if I am being honest but GCN telling me I can do it on my own didn't help either. I have been riding for 2 years now in the same position with no issues, but at the back of my mind, I was flirting with the idea of getting one. I always felt that I was leaving some power and comfort on the table and felt a bike fit would help in this regard.

After suffering an injury (off the bike) and getting a professional assessment by a Biokineticist I am now rehabbing what he called patellar chondromalacia. This has led me to accept that I desperately need a bike fit. I have narrowed my bike fit options to Richard Baxter, Cycle Fit and North Cliff Cycles. 

Which brings me to the point of this thread.

Is a bike fitter enough or should I also consult with a podiatrist?

I have extremely flat feet, knocked knees and duck "feet" the trifactor of bad posture. On top of that, I was once told that I have a leg length discrepancy, extremely tight hamstrings.

 

A biokinetist is your answer .Your knee joint is out of balance and that needs to be fixed 

[DieselnDust]

26 minutes ago, J Wakefield said:

If I really had to be a dick I could say that once some riders he has fitted come back from Australia we have had to make a series of corrections for them into the new season.

Ya I don't get a sense of "we're a problem solving solution provider" but rather the "we have a product with a hymn sheet come sing with us".

the Video on Shimano pedal and cleat wear was mildly amusing since TIME TBT has been a go to technology for many pro and amateur riders with all kinds of upper to lower leg muscular, skeletal or flexibility discrepancies. It was good enough for Shimano and Look to copy the idea into their own systems. he bangs on about Q-factor when many many people hop form road bike to gravel to mtb all with different q-factors yet no hips have been destroyed.

Youtube can be great resource for learning but it is also a great resource for marketing and often the two are mutually exclusive.

Funny though that he quoted the same examples of riders where their bike fit is an evolution of their unique physiology then in the next paragraph bangs on about how it could be changed all from a brief 10 sec clip. 

John I'm sure you are aware of studies with riders where a position change has resulted in improved  power or endurance in well trained cyclists but have you ever seen a silver bullet within a 3omin bike fit? In my limited experience improvement in bike fit occurs over time through incremental changes as you evolve as a cyclist. This is where I like Jeroen's system/methodology

 

[Ncayi]

1 minute ago, eala said:

A biokinetist is your answer .Your knee joint is out of balance and that needs to be fixed 

I have seen one already and that's what they said. Hip imbalance, weak hamstrings glutes and quads can be contributing factors, so I am working on that stuff. The bio also indicated that it may be a good idea to see a podiatrist. However, I need to be sure that whatever treatment I pursue takes into account my cycling hence my interest in getting a bike fit.

Ps. I don't want to be seeing multiple people for issues that could be addressed by one person, hence my original question. But I have more clarity on how to proceed now. What has been interesting though is the public perception concerning many "experts". Bio believes chiropractors are a scam, some people swear that physiotherapists are a waste of money and bike fitters are equivalent to "pig **** merchants" (Game of Thrones reference).  So what is the average dude with a dad body and weak FTP supposed to believe?

 

[J Wakefield]

10 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

Ya I don't get a sense of "we're a problem solving solution provider" but rather the "we have a product with a hymn sheet come sing with us".

the Video on Shimano pedal and cleat wear was mildly amusing since TIME TBT has been a go to technology for many pro and amateur riders with all kinds of upper to lower leg muscular, skeletal or flexibility discrepancies. It was good enough for Shimano and Look to copy the idea into their own systems. he bangs on about Q-factor when many many people hop form road bike to gravel to mtb all with different q-factors yet no hips have been destroyed.

Youtube can be great resource for learning but it is also a great resource for marketing and often the two are mutually exclusive.

Funny though that he quoted the same examples of riders where their bike fit is an evolution of their unique physiology then in the next paragraph bangs on about how it could be changed all from a brief 10 sec clip. 

John I'm sure you are aware of studies with riders where a position change has resulted in improved  power or endurance in well trained cyclists but have you ever seen a silver bullet within a 3omin bike fit? In my limited experience improvement in bike fit occurs over time through incremental changes as you evolve as a cyclist. This is where I like Jeroen's system/methodology

 

If I had a 30min silver bullet I would not be sitting in a airport on route to Austria for a pre Vuelta altitude camp playing on the Hub.

I would be playing on the hub using my staff to type this from my Villa in Mallorca 

[J Wakefield]

12 minutes ago, Ncayi said:

I have seen one already and that's what they said. Hip imbalance, weak hamstrings glutes and quads can be contributing factors, so I am working on that stuff. The bio also indicated that it may be a good idea to see a podiatrist. However, I need to be sure that whatever treatment I pursue takes into account my cycling hence my interest in getting a bike fit.

Ps. I don't want to be seeing multiple people for issues that could be addressed by one person, hence my original question. But I have more clarity on how to proceed now. What has been interesting though is the public perception concerning many "experts". Bio believes chiropractors are a scam, some people swear that physiotherapists are a waste of money and bike fitters are equivalent to "pig **** merchants" (Game of Thrones reference).  So what is the average dude with a dad body and weak FTP supposed to believe?

 

Listen and take advice from someone or person who has a he and track reference to what you actually need identified and corrected. 

That is for you to identity that person or people